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Post by samford71 on Jul 28, 2018 16:41:45 GMT
I can only think that some P2P platforms will be pushing back against this document. We have seen the FCA float sensible changes before, only for lobbying from platforms to result in such changes being either watered down or quietly dropped. Take, for example, the more toward more investors needing to self-certify as sophisticated investors, high net worth investors, or that they will not invest more than 10% of their net investible portfolio in P2P agreements. Now, self-certification is a waste of time in pragmatic terms (the investor lies, the platform doesn't check, both are happy). Nonetheless, the signal is all wrong here for platforms. They market P2P very much as a replacement for instant access or term deposits. It's saving, not investment, in their marketing. The idea of a 10% cap, is an especially negative signal. It forces investors to think twice about their exposure, which is hardly what you want if P2P is being marketed as "cash-like".
Similarly, take the comments around SMs. Investors, by and large, like SMs and platforms like to promote the idea of liquidity (instant access again). Here though the FCA is pushing for the transfers of loan being executed at a fair price. Theoretically, it could kill par-only SMs. Variable priced SMs, however, they point out also have issues due to asymmetry of information and other factors. Forcing platforms to revalue defaulted loans is going to make products like AC's QAA harder. The QAA is pragmatically a collective investment scheme, dressed up like a P2P account. If, however, transfers cannot be made between clients at par for defaulted loans then this could fall apart. This is going to make it harder for platforms to maintain SMs and it could threaten various products that are less than vanilla interpretations of P2P.
What this report doesn't address is the basic flaw in the way P2P regs were setup. P2P regulation was mirrored to some extent on consumer loan regs used by banks, driven by the spurious idea that somehow P2P was similar to bank lending. Bank lending is a purely bilateral process. The bank, subject to prudential limits, lends to the borrower, creating deposits ex nihilo (it's a misconception that banks act as intermediaries, lending out deposits that savers place with them). P2P, by comparison, is actually like the misconception: the platform intermediates, in return for a fee/spread, a process where an investor lends money to a borrower. This is clearly a trilateral process. By using a bilateral model for a trilateral process, I feel you can't help but create issues. Hence why TCF (treating the customer fairly) usually is about treating borrowers fairly, not the investors. Until the regs explictly see that there are two clients, borrower and lender, who are equal, I get the feeling P2P regs will always be playing catch-up for lenders.
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Post by jackpease on Jul 29, 2018 6:06:59 GMT
Unfortunately bigfoot12 yours is exactly the sort of attitude that is aiding and abetting the less than honest Platforms and allowing them to continue flourishing. Fortunately however most on here want the industry cleaned up, for the benefit of all. [ EDIT / PS: As has been said on here before, the dodgy Platforms love contributions like yours bigfoot12. ] "Most on here" will indeed become the apparent prevalent view if those who don't agree are characterised in this way. So in this new utopia with 'regulated p2p medium returns ' there will be an opening for new platforms offering 'wildwest p2p >12% returns'. I suspect most - including those who are angry - will start over with the wildwest option - and get angry all over again when it goes wrong. Jack P
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macq
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Post by macq on Jul 29, 2018 8:03:01 GMT
While some areas of P2P could be called the wild West i think at the start they encouraged both sophisticated and for want of a better word semi sophisticated investors chasing higher rates but you stlii had to be aware of the market as property development,business loans have always been around before P2P opened the market up more Have said before i feel once the ISA part was added and picked up on by money sites.newspapers etc you then have your unsophisticated investor coming in.So instead of already having a product with its own rules in place like VCT it seems to me that the FCA having realised that there are problems(which we knew) and more people investing that claims of mis-selling etc could be down the road are now looking to act.And after a quick read there seem to be some good points made for a tighter run industry which should benefit investor & platform
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Jul 29, 2018 8:29:08 GMT
Whilst the eventual FCA rule changes are indeed likely to be watered down, this report provides a clear "shot across the bows" that platforms must clean up their acts or expect enforcement action in due course.
I do suspect that "par only" SMs will now progressively be changed / withdrawn as a result, along with much clearer communication of Provision Fund arrangements.
Further thought: I wonder if some of the sweatiest palms aren't over at FC, especially given their pending IPO. Not only could potential changes to "customer eligibility" hit their core lender profile, the entire basis of their Auto-sell model could be blown away if par-only secondary trading is blocked.
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Post by jackpease on Jul 29, 2018 18:14:23 GMT
jackpease , i am having difficulty following your argument. why would those of us who have identified the wild west want to go back into it ?!?! speaking for myself, ive been there, done that, got the postcard. I’ve no desire to be exposed to that’s shoddy behaviour ever again and it is incomprehensible to me why anyone would want continuation of the status-quo which is so evidently broken. as a p2p lender you are supposed to be a “sophisticated investor”. so you should already be in a position where you recognise the systemic risks to lenders if the present situation is permitted to continue. those of us who have been involved in the markets can certainly see how the present situation is a disaster waiting to happen, not if but when ! as a “sophisticated investor”you should not be chasing yields. in the bond markets, returns over 12% (your random number) would be known as “junk bonds” (or non-IG bonds to be politically correct). those bonds yield over 12% in recognition of the stupid outsized risks you are taking rather than the generosity of the issuer ! the same goes for the equities markets where if you were chasing 12% growth on an annualised basis, you would most likely be taking stupid risks unless you were one of those very rare breed of talented stock pickers. the trouble with p2p is as the fca have spelled out in their document, it has attracted a great deal of “less than sophisticated” yield chasers. and also, even for the “sophisticated”, as the fca spells out, there are a great number of conduct risks and systemic risks that need addressing. the fca have effectively said that no matter who you are, the status-quo with all its conduct risks and systemic risks has become unsustainable. the fca have finally recognised this, and so should all the apologists (as ozboy puts it) >why would they go back into it? Well take Lendy - 12% - feeding frenzy - goes wrong - angry frenzy - up pops moneything - feeding frenzy - goes wrong - people getting angry .... and round and round each time a new platform pops up and offers 12%, which gets snapped up especially with warm words on this board from platform reps who have nothing but good news to dispense. >less than sophisticated investor.... Well there's loads of people who saw the due diligence playing out in real time on some Lendy loans - saw some gaping holes being pointed out on this forum - and invested anyway because it was 12%.... I don't think its just 'unsophisticated' investors, there's plenty on this board who were caught out and now angry. >>the fca have finally recognised this, and so should all the apologists..... I guess I am being an apologist for saying that I am comfortable with high risk high return, I am less comfortable if controls are imposed that prevent high risk high return, not quite sure why i should be required to want high risk high return to be regulated out of existence. Jack P
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 29, 2018 19:43:00 GMT
It's the old concept, 'Why does history repeat itself, because no one is listening.'
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 30, 2018 6:10:56 GMT
I wonder which p2p companies will ask their borrowers and lenders to read the document and give their opinions to the FCA.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jul 30, 2018 7:17:15 GMT
And then tell the FCA to strike that input from the record, if they don't like what was said? Oh wait, that's Trustpilot ....
As to 12% platforms vanishing, with a fairer share of risk/reward, we might see 22% platforms (FCs E-grade loans) .. the main problem being, as we well recall, the stampede to buy some.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Jul 30, 2018 7:49:59 GMT
I hope and trust that most forum members will invest the few minutes it takes to respond to the FCA's questions using their online feedback form here, if only to confirm general support for their recommendations. It is likely that certain platforms with vested interests in preserving the status quo will do their utmost to push the FCA into watering down their recommendations, so an equally loud voice from lenders will be critical!
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on Jul 30, 2018 8:02:04 GMT
I hope and trust that most forum members will invest the few minutes it takes to respond to the FCA's questions using their online feedback form here, if only to confirm general support for their recommendations. It is likely that certain platforms with vested interests in preserving the status quo will do their utmost to push the FCA into watering down their recommendations, so an equally loud voice from lenders will be critical! I agree! This is what some of the P2P industry leaders think of the FCA review. www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/07/27/heres-what-the-industry-thinks-of-the-fca-review/
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 30, 2018 14:49:04 GMT
I hope and trust that most forum members will invest the few minutes it takes to respond to the FCA's questions using their online feedback form here, if only to confirm general support for their recommendations. It is likely that certain platforms with vested interests in preserving the status quo will do their utmost to push the FCA into watering down their recommendations, so an equally loud voice from lenders will be critical! Thanks for the link SteveT, I've submitted my comments, almost all of which were supportive of the suggestions contained in the proposal.....
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Jul 30, 2018 16:25:24 GMT
I hope and trust that most forum members will invest the few minutes it takes to respond to the FCA's questions using their online feedback form here, if only to confirm general support for their recommendations. It is likely that certain platforms with vested interests in preserving the status quo will do their utmost to push the FCA into watering down their recommendations, so an equally loud voice from lenders will be critical! I agree! This is what some of the P2P industry leaders think of the FCA review. www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/07/27/heres-what-the-industry-thinks-of-the-fca-review/I see AC are pushing back on marketing in their comments. I dont agree given some of their marketing material.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 30, 2018 21:38:44 GMT
I see AC are pushing back on marketing in their comments. I dont agree given some of their marketing material. Not an unreasonable comment given equity crowdfunding has potential for 100% wipeout while P2P lending never should (at least 1st charge)
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Post by df on Jul 31, 2018 1:31:12 GMT
Not an unreasonable comment given equity crowdfunding has potential for 100% wipeout while P2P lending never should (at least 1st charge) bwahahahaha. Oh what it is to be naïve. thanks for the laughs ! i can assure you that the possibility of 100% wipe out (or near enough) does exist in P2P. And at least one platform i can think of has consistently demonstrated the ability of borrowers to make security disappear into thin air. maybe if the fca are serious about tidying up the industry, things will be different once the new regs are in force. but in today’s wild west environment, i suspect you may need to re-evaluate your understanding of the inherent risks of p2p. The possibility may exist, but if you diversify you can achieve rates better than offered by mainstream providers. Just a thought - would it be more productive to share your own "re-evaluation of understanding" than urging others to go back to basics?
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Jul 31, 2018 2:15:49 GMT
Not an unreasonable comment given equity crowdfunding has potential for 100% wipeout while P2P lending never should (at least 1st charge) bwahahahaha. Oh what it is to be naïve. thanks for the laughs ! 😁 ...but in today’s wild west environment, i suspect you may need to re-evaluate your understanding of the inherent risks of p2p. Er, ilmoro is possibly the most informed retail* investor in p2p. (*the only reason for that qualification is a platform rep is winning the Orca p2p knowledge quiz 😉 ).
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