ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Aug 24, 2018 8:59:59 GMT
A very sobering article for all us p2pers. It could be a tough two years ahead.
Google “providers of debt advice warn of funding crisis” to reach the FT article.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Aug 24, 2018 9:25:31 GMT
Looks like recoveries might be about to fall if P2P start paying their share of advice, might make consumer P2P less appealing. Final sentence is wrong/unclear. ONS said that households spent £900 more than they earned and they borrowed or withdrew savings to cover this.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Aug 24, 2018 10:31:27 GMT
I have no interest in unsecured consumer debt.
I would maybe lend to high earners with secure jobs if the interest rate was reasonable.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Aug 24, 2018 10:46:06 GMT
Trouble is most "secured debt" is based on flawed valuations and 70% LTV. A catastrophic combination, as recovery costs can easily swallow 10% in difficult cases. Especially to spivvy property developers who never pay up on time and are blessed with eternal optimism about the property market which is horridly cyclical.
There are no safe places to hide come the next recession and since we haven't had one for 10 years.........
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Aug 24, 2018 19:20:10 GMT
A very sobering article for all us p2pers. It could be a tough two years ahead. Google “providers of debt advice warn of funding crisis” to reach the FT article. Free advice = 12% paid from repayment plan
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Post by samford71 on Aug 24, 2018 19:34:57 GMT
UK household saving rates have been falling since 2010 and finally went negative in 2017. The chart below, which shows sectoral balances (as % of GDP) show how they have fallen Conservation of cashflows means the sum of government + corporate + household + rest of world = 0. Given the rest of world has been a positive (we run a current account deficit, hence we have a capital account surplus), then the others must sum to a negative. Typically the government runs a fiscal deficit (a negative sectoral balance) so this allows households to run a surplus and save. As the government implemented austerity, however, this reduced the fiscal deficit. Given corporates refuse to invest more (economic uncertainty, Brexit, shareholders prefer share buybacks/dividends), then to balance up the equation, households savings started to fall. Now households are going into debt at an increasing rate to pay for the current account deficit. So it's a pretty grim outlook for UK households (includings SMEs) unless something changes. I'd compare this to US consumer debt where because the current account deficit is smaller the overall sectoral balance is less extreme. Moreover, US government has been far less ideologically opposed to fiscal stimulus. As a result the consumer debt position, while still worrying large, is at least not going into a rapid descent like the UK.
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arby
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Post by arby on Aug 24, 2018 22:21:36 GMT
UK household saving rates have been falling since 2010 and finally went negative in 2017. The chart below, which shows sectoral balances (as % of GDP) show how they have fallen Conservation of cashflows means the sum of government + corporate + household + rest of world = 0. Given the rest of world has been a positive (we run a current account deficit, hence we have a capital account surplus), then the others must sum to a negative. Typically the government runs a fiscal deficit (a negative sectoral balance) so this allows households to run a surplus and save. As the government implemented austerity, however, this reduced the fiscal deficit. Given corporates refuse to invest more (economic uncertainty, Brexit, shareholders prefer share buybacks/dividends), then to balance up the equation, households savings started to fall. Now households are going into debt at an increasing rate to pay for the current account deficit. So it's a pretty grim outlook for UK households (includings SMEs) unless something changes. I'd compare this to US consumer debt where because the current account deficit is smaller the overall sectoral balance is less extreme. Moreover, US government has been far less ideologically opposed to fiscal stimulus. As a result the consumer debt position, while still worrying large, is at least not going into a rapid descent like the UK. Place a recession on top of this and things would get real exciting....
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aju
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Post by aju on Aug 25, 2018 18:11:27 GMT
"We're doomed Mr Mainwaring Sir, We're doomed" ....
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 25, 2018 19:23:41 GMT
"We're doomed Mr Mainwaring Sir, We're doomed" .... Unless you're a bailiff
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arby
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Post by arby on Aug 26, 2018 8:56:30 GMT
"We're doomed Mr Mainwaring Sir, We're doomed" .... Unless you're a bailiff Would investing in that industry be the best hedge available?
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Aug 26, 2018 9:33:49 GMT
Probably looks even worse at the macro level with government debt and trade deficits. Only real way is to hold assets not cash. Since I have to hold some cash might I might as well gamble it on the safe end of p2p, that is my opinion. Although that safe end is looking less and less safe in my opinion and I am slowly exiting. Even a disaster would be covered by the extra return I have made over the last 5 years so what ever happens I will come out ahead on my venture into p2p. it will all go pop at some point but when is anyone's guess
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Post by samford71 on Aug 27, 2018 8:38:38 GMT
To relate this story to P2P consumer debt, these charts are illuminating (see below, source AltFi data). On the top chart we have Zopa Bad Debt rates for their loan cohorts from 2011 through 2016. This chart is from late 17 so there is no data for the 2017 cohort. We can see that the bad debt rates were unchanged over 2011-13, started to rise in 2014 and spiked further in 2015-16. This is not due to changes in the mix of loan grades since this pattern is repeated inside specific loan grades. The rise in bad debt is possibly coincident, once measurement lags are taken into account, with the sharp fall in the household sectoral balance from 2015 (chart in prior post by me in this thread). The second chart is Zopa's 12-month trailing net return to lenders (net of fees and loss given default). The net return is now below that observed in 2007. In the financial crisis the rise in bad debt rates on Zopa was offset by higher yields hence 2007 was the actual low in returns, if not in defaults. Since 2015 we have seen rising bad debt rates without the corresponding rise in yields, hence returns are now at all time lows. Hence my view that when some commentators point out that Zopa survived the last crash, this statement is not pertinent to how P2P behaves in the next crash. The behaviour of the Zopa loanbook of 2008/09 is in no way indicative of how it will behave in 2018 and in fact returns are already worse than observed in the financial crash.
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arby
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Post by arby on Aug 27, 2018 11:31:15 GMT
To relate this story to P2P consumer debt, these charts are illuminating (see below, source AltFi data). On the top chart we have Zopa Bad Debt rates for their loan cohorts from 2011 through 2016. This chart is from late 17 so there is no data for the 2017 cohort. We can see that the bad debt rates were unchanged over 2011-13, started to rise in 2014 and spiked further in 2015-16. This is not due to changes in the mix of loan grades since this pattern is repeated inside specific loan grades. The rise in bad debt is possibly coincident, once measurement lags are taken into account, with the sharp fall in the household sectoral balance from 2015 (chart in prior post by me in this thread). The second chart is Zopa's 12-month trailing net return to lenders (net of fees and loss given default). The net return is now below that observed in 2007. In the financial crisis the rise in bad debt rates on Zopa was offset by higher yields hence 2007 was the actual low in returns, if not in defaults. Since 2015 we have seen rising bad debt rates without the corresponding rise in yields, hence returns are now at all time lows. Hence my view that when some commentators point out that Zopa survived the last crash, this statement is not pertinent to how P2P behaves in the next crash. The behaviour of the Zopa loanbook of 2008/09 is in no way indicative of how it will behave in 2018 and in fact returns are already worse than observed in the financial crash. Further extrapolation for what comes next is never reliable, but still, that's not a pretty picture and there doesn't seem much to indicate the trend will reverse. Thanks for compiling it.
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