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Post by batchoy on Nov 27, 2013 10:25:09 GMT
In directly related to the current discussions about the operation of the secondary market in that it is to do with the releasing of capital, do AC set limits and/penalties with respect to the draw down time on a loans that have been filled?
As a lender I fully accept that if I bid on day one on an auction that is scheduled last 14 days my funds will be tied up for that 14 days plus a few more before it is drawn down and earning interest or it is returned to my account for use elsewhere, however there are a couple of recent auctions where the delay in drawing down the funds is getting very noticeable. It would therefore be useful to know that there is a definitive date at which the loan offer expires and my funds will be released and, or that I will receive some return for this extended period by penalties on the borrower.
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Post by chris on Nov 27, 2013 10:54:47 GMT
This is a problem that we are very aware of and is related to us taking security for the loans that often can't be processed until the loan has been filled in the primary market. As our confidence grows that all our loans are going to fill then we can undertake more and more work up front before listing the loans, and we are also working on several other ways in which to either mitigate the issue or speed drawdown. There have been some instances where a bonus has been paid to investors who have had to wait an unusually long period of time and we have been able to pass on those costs to the borrower.
We are also working on a progress report system with time estimates so that lenders can see how close we are to drawdown, the remaining work that is blocking it, and have some kind of estimate of how long things are likely to take. Unfortunately our loans are always likely to be more complicated than the unsecured (or minimally secured) lending that other platforms employ and the longer drawdown times are a consequence of that, but we firmly believe that we have the right approach with always seeking solid security for our lenders.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 29, 2013 9:55:30 GMT
@ batchoy Yes, the draw down times can be much longer on platforms that look to structure the security properly, such as Assetz and Thin Cats. Over on Thin Cats I believe the average is about 3 weeks, but some are very quick and some are much slower. On the whole, Assetz deals are simpler but some delays are to be expected. The issue of whether to penalise borrowers for delays is constantly being discussed on the Thin Cats forum. It's a difficult one because (i) delays are not always their fault (it's often down to their bankers or solicitors), and (ii) it might put them off applying, or lead them to demand a lower headline rate. My personal view is that a provision to share the pain when delays go over 3 weeks might be appropriate. The risk of delay should always be factored into the investment decision, especially on shorter loans where a delay has a disproportionate impact on returns.
@ chris For your part, I hope Assetz do start to put in more work earlier in the process. Equally important is that the documentation we are given for every loan tells us both how long drawdown is expected to take and the uncertainties/risks attendant to that. For example if Assetz will have a second charge and a Deed of Priority needs to be agreed with the first chargeholder, I know it's likely to take longer and be more uncertain but this should be spelled out in as much detail as you can so that potential lenders can make their own assesment. The progress report you mention will be good, but we need more information before the lending decision is made.
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Post by chris on Nov 29, 2013 10:37:44 GMT
Duly noted. As the platform continues to grow and we start formally classifying the securities taken within the system, something that is planned in the short term, then we can start collecting ever more data about processing times. Once I have sufficient volume of data I can start publishing average completion times against the various securities, etc.
We are trying to find ways of processing ever more up front, but this can't always be achieved. There will always be things that can't be processed until after a loan is funded, and some of these will always depend upon third parties.
I agree that information is key so that lenders can factor this into their plans.
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Post by batchoy on Nov 30, 2013 11:02:58 GMT
chris: I like your thoughts and intentions on making more information available, but there is nothing like a deadline for focusing peoples minds, hence the original question regard contractual deadlines, i.e. the borrower has 30, 60, 90 or 120 days to get everything signed off and the funds drawn down or the offer will expire. At the moment things seem to be fairly open ended
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Post by chris on Nov 30, 2013 13:00:28 GMT
I understand where you're coming from and will relay your feelings to the rest of the team.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Nov 30, 2013 13:14:43 GMT
I wonder if any "penalties" could be charged. For instance, a % per week charge could be imposed after a thirty day limit.... or better, just make it an up front charge element which would be refunded if drawdown is taken <21 (or <30) days after the end of the auction, then the word penalty could be avoided.
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Post by chris on Nov 30, 2013 13:23:47 GMT
This has been done on occasion where it has been the borrower delaying things with any fines being passed on to the lenders. Usually (I believe, I'm a little removed from the process) it's a third party that the borrower can't control that causes the delay which makes fining them a little harsh. I have forwarded this thread to the rest of the directors so I'm sure between us we'll start working on an equitable solution.
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Post by mrclondon on Nov 30, 2013 13:28:08 GMT
To a certain extent we have to take the rough with the smooth ... the Leeds CP loan has drawndown 5 days after filling (although no doubt legals were started before then given the loan had been fully underwritten for a week or so prior). By luck I have either avoided, or only had a token investement in the loans that have either failed to drawdown or taken ages to do so.
I do however agree that the process appears to be a bit too open ended at present, and as such encourages procrastination on the part of the borrower / borrower's legal and financial advisers. My thoughts are a contractual completion deadline set according to the expected complexity of the legals (e.g. 30 to 90 days) with thereafter a monthly commitment fee (even if this is set at a token bank base rate + x % ) would both help concentrate minds as suggested above, and provide both Assetz & lenders a small recompence for procrastination.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Nov 30, 2013 13:32:56 GMT
"....it's a third party that the borrower can't control that causes the delay which makes fining them a little harsh"
Yes. If the mechanism is in place, they can always be assured that they won't be penalised when that is clearly the case. It seems to me anyway that Assetz tailors loans to individual borrower's needs rather than relying on strict formulae and "computer says" mentality.
Mmm! I'm hungry! Coffee first!
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Post by andrewholgate on Dec 2, 2013 12:32:47 GMT
As Chris has said, we are aware of the drawn out nature of some of the loans we have done. In all cases we are aiming to have loans drawn down within 2 weeks of the end of the auction, but in many cases we are in the hands of third parties who do not share our need for expediency.
Ensuring that each loan is as complete as possible before it goes to auction is something that we are working on constantly. I hope through 2014 we are able to find the right balance in this regard.
We are listening to your concerns, but I must also stress not every delay is foreseeable or within the control of Assetz Capital.
Andrew
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 2, 2013 15:28:13 GMT
... but I must also stress not every delay is foreseeable or within the control of Assetz Capital. ... or, for that matter, within the control of the borrower!
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Dec 8, 2013 13:17:56 GMT
I am watching with interest the loans going back as far as 24 October (apart from Hampshire which is recent), to see what effort prospective borrowers appear make to drawdown before the Christmas/New Year fortnight's "holiday" situation pushes them way into January. The four messages we had on 3 Dec updating the oldest of these loans have something in common which has concerned me (though I couldn't possibly say why in public!) and the outcome of these will influence my lending decisions in future - and what was the rush in Bolton? Drawdown needed by late November - yeah, right.
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