cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 10, 2020 11:26:13 GMT
Hello, Just wanted to clarify from HMRC guidance. 1. P2P losses can only be claimed against P2P Gains and no other type of income ie from stocks and shares, or interest from cash 2. The capital and potential interest can both be claimed as a loss against P2P income?
3. I can carry forward P2P Losses forward to another financial year but is there a limit on how much or how many years back you can claim.?Is my understanding correct. thanks
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 10, 2020 12:11:58 GMT
Hello, Just wanted to clarify from HMRC guidance. 1. P2P losses can only be claimed against P2P Gains and no other type of income ie from stocks and shares, or interest from cash 2. The capital and potential interest can both be claimed as a loss against P2P income?
3. I can carry forward P2P Losses forward to another financial year but is there a limit on how much or how many years back you can claim.?Is my understanding correct. thanks
1. Yes 2. Capital only. 3. You can go forward 4 years (confirmed somewhere on here), you can't claim retrospectively, but I guess you could change previous returns (if you have a good reason that would convince HMRC) there are also limits on how far back you can change your returns.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 10, 2020 12:18:47 GMT
If I have negative income owing to Lendy and Bondmason, do I really have to put this on a tax return alongside my paltry savings interest? Working out how negative with Lendy is a nuisance, given that my gross earnings are way under the £1k limit. First confirm Bondmason is eligible for loss relief as they are recievables not P2P loans so probably dont count under SAIM 12000 criteria - probably need to be entered elsewhere. If you are negative after Lendy (BM if eligible) then I dont think you need to enter anything but I would put a note stating that your interest minus loss relief is zero and you will be carrying forward relief. Alternatively, just claim loans to take income to zero and forego the rest. ( It is unclear at what point you have to claim loans but in theory if you dont claim under 'treatable' criteria then they will be subsequently eligible when Lendy define them as having 'become' irrecoverable somewhere down the line). Usual caveats apply - not advice, seek advice etc. As I recall (without going back into my files to check) Bondmason tax statements said you can claim tax relief, but fees were not deductible before tax on interest. If you have a tax statement it should be clear.
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Jan 10, 2020 12:27:37 GMT
I haven't completed my 18/19 return yet. I was planning to claim loss relief for some loans on FS which the platform hadn't "defaulted" but which in my view will lead to more or less a complete loss. Some of these have recently been defaulted ie in 19/20. Any views on whether this would strengthen my intentions re 18/19, or do I now have to wait until completing my 19/20 return to claim them?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 10, 2020 12:50:07 GMT
1. Yes 2. Capital only. 3. You can go forward 4 years (confirmed somewhere on here), you can't claim retrospectively, but I guess you could change previous returns (if you have a good reason that would convince HMRC) there are also limits on how far back you can change your returns.
"The Lender can claim relief on peer to peer (P2P) loans that became irrecoverable on or after 6 April 2015, against interest received from loans made through P2P platforms in the 4 years following the year in which the debt became irrecoverable.
This relief can only be claimed if the loss resulting from the irrecoverable loan cannot be used wholly against interest received through P2P platforms in the same year as the loan is treated as becoming irrecoverable.
If carried forward, relief for the outstanding amount of the irrecoverable loan must be used against P2P interest received in the earliest year first, up to a maximum of 4 years.
The relief should be claimed in a tax return.
In order to claim relief in a tax return the lender should deduct their available relief from the P2P interest that they have received in the relevant tax year before entering the figure in their tax return."
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 10, 2020 13:08:03 GMT
I haven't completed my 18/19 return yet. I was planning to claim loss relief for some loans on FS which the platform hadn't "defaulted" but which in my view will lead to more or less a complete loss. Some of these have recently been defaulted ie in 19/20. Any views on whether this would strengthen my intentions re 18/19, or do I now have to wait until completing my 19/20 return to claim them? Were the borrowers in receivership, admin, bankruptcy or otherwise subject to legal recovery in 18/19 (not just in default)? If yes can be claimed, if no then not eligible until 19/20 year.
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Jan 10, 2020 13:15:03 GMT
I haven't completed my 18/19 return yet. I was planning to claim loss relief for some loans on FS which the platform hadn't "defaulted" but which in my view will lead to more or less a complete loss. Some of these have recently been defaulted ie in 19/20. Any views on whether this would strengthen my intentions re 18/19, or do I now have to wait until completing my 19/20 return to claim them? Were the borrowers in receivership, admin, bankruptcy or otherwise subject to legal recovery in 18/19 (not just in default)? If yes can be claimed, if no then not eligible until 19/20 year. Thanks ilmoro. I feared this was the case; I just hope I can generate enough profit over the next few years to maximise the relief for the losses I fear I'm going to suffer.
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Jan 10, 2020 19:29:26 GMT
If I have negative income owing to Lendy and Bondmason, do I really have to put this on a tax return alongside my paltry savings interest? Working out how negative with Lendy is a nuisance, given that my gross earnings are way under the £1k limit. First confirm Bondmason is eligible for loss relief as they are recievables not P2P loans so probably dont count under SAIM 12000 criteria - probably need to be entered elsewhere. If you are negative after Lendy (BM if eligible) then I dont think you need to enter anything but I would put a note stating that your interest minus loss relief is zero and you will be carrying forward relief. Alternatively, just claim loans to take income to zero and forego the rest. ( It is unclear at what point you have to claim loans but in theory if you dont claim under 'treatable' criteria then they will be subsequently eligible when Lendy define them as having 'become' irrecoverable somewhere down the line). Usual caveats apply - not advice, seek advice etc. thanks, v helpful. So if I might want to use loss relief for my next claimed year or others in the future, I need to state this in this return - if I don't I can't claim relief in the future? first one I've ever filled in. @greenwood2 also commented - so BM may be a different class and therefore losses aren't transferable against a different investment type for lay-investors? Having looked, It seems reasonable to judge BM as P2P in the SAIM criteria in that I am responsible for the defaulted specific loans in my basket (incl the COL ones); "P2P lending generally operates on a ‘many to many’ lending model where the platform acts as an intermediary to arrange and manage the loans". (Is BM culpable for choosing them as a platform?).
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 10, 2020 20:36:48 GMT
First confirm Bondmason is eligible for loss relief as they are recievables not P2P loans so probably dont count under SAIM 12000 criteria - probably need to be entered elsewhere. If you are negative after Lendy (BM if eligible) then I dont think you need to enter anything but I would put a note stating that your interest minus loss relief is zero and you will be carrying forward relief. Alternatively, just claim loans to take income to zero and forego the rest. ( It is unclear at what point you have to claim loans but in theory if you dont claim under 'treatable' criteria then they will be subsequently eligible when Lendy define them as having 'become' irrecoverable somewhere down the line). Usual caveats apply - not advice, seek advice etc. thanks, v helpful. So if I might want to use loss relief for my next claimed year or others in the future, I need to state this in this return - if I don't I can't claim relief in the future? first one I've ever filled in. @greenwood2 also commented - so BM may be a different class and therefore losses aren't transferable against a different investment type for lay-investors? Having looked, It seems reasonable to judge BM as P2P in the SAIM criteria in that I am responsible for the defaulted specific loans in my basket (incl the COL ones); "P2P lending generally operates on a ‘many to many’ lending model where the platform acts as an intermediary to arrange and manage the loans". (Is BM culpable for choosing them as a platform?). AIUI there is no requirement to do anything on the form other than enter your net income from P2P ie 0 in your case. HMRC guidance recommends you keep records of anything being carried forward. You wont lose carry forward relief if you dont note it on the form but personally I always feel it is better to give HMRC some explanation as to what you have done, especially if your return is at variance to the info they might receive from the platform eg you have self-certified losses. duck might be a better source for the practicalities, IIRC he has posted about his use of relief.
Im not a BM user so not particularly familiar with them, or exactly how 'aggregator' platforms fall under the SAIM rules. SAIM criteria require the platform to have P2P lending permission which BM doesnt have. So the question is whther the underlying platforms permissions validate the loss relief via a third party. If the loans are specific rather than just a basket of holdings then this seems possible. The other issue is that AIUI not all BM loans were P2P loans so is it possible to specifically identify which loans losses are specifically attributed to? The final point is that Collateral loans are not eligible for loss relief on current thinking as the paltform was not authorised so if losses are specific to those loans then they arent eligible.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 10, 2020 20:50:11 GMT
First confirm Bondmason is eligible for loss relief as they are recievables not P2P loans so probably dont count under SAIM 12000 criteria - probably need to be entered elsewhere. If you are negative after Lendy (BM if eligible) then I dont think you need to enter anything but I would put a note stating that your interest minus loss relief is zero and you will be carrying forward relief. Alternatively, just claim loans to take income to zero and forego the rest. ( It is unclear at what point you have to claim loans but in theory if you dont claim under 'treatable' criteria then they will be subsequently eligible when Lendy define them as having 'become' irrecoverable somewhere down the line). Usual caveats apply - not advice, seek advice etc. thanks, v helpful. So if I might want to use loss relief for my next claimed year or others in the future, I need to state this in this return - if I don't I can't claim relief in the future? first one I've ever filled in. @greenwood2 also commented - so BM may be a different class and therefore losses aren't transferable against a different investment type for lay-investors? Having looked, It seems reasonable to judge BM as P2P in the SAIM criteria in that I am responsible for the defaulted specific loans in my basket (incl the COL ones); "P2P lending generally operates on a ‘many to many’ lending model where the platform acts as an intermediary to arrange and manage the loans". (Is BM culpable for choosing them as a platform?). As far as I am aware BM said HMRC consider BM losses are P2P losses and are tax deductible against P2P income (don't believe me take your own advice) they claimed to do DD (better than platforms they used) so I don't know if there would be any mileage in saying they made mistakes like everyone else. But (as I understood it) they claimed to use only the platforms, they thought were solid, and only the 'best' loans on those platforms so I'm personally not very happy about losses on BM. Very unlikely they could be culpable for things they were not aware of like the Col situation, like the rest of us!
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Jan 10, 2020 20:53:49 GMT
thanks, v helpful. So if I might want to use loss relief for my next claimed year or others in the future, I need to state this in this return - if I don't I can't claim relief in the future? first one I've ever filled in. @greenwood2 also commented - so BM may be a different class and therefore losses aren't transferable against a different investment type for lay-investors? Having looked, It seems reasonable to judge BM as P2P in the SAIM criteria in that I am responsible for the defaulted specific loans in my basket (incl the COL ones); "P2P lending generally operates on a ‘many to many’ lending model where the platform acts as an intermediary to arrange and manage the loans". (Is BM culpable for choosing them as a platform?). AIUI there is no requirement to do anything on the form other than enter your net income from P2P ie 0 in your case. HMRC guidance recommends you keep records of anything being carried forward. You wont lose carry forward relief if you dont note it on the form but personally I always feel it is better to give HMRC some explanation as to what you have done, especially if your return is at variance to the info they might receive from the platform eg you have self-certified losses. duck might be a better source for the practicalities, IIRC he has posted about his use of relief.
Im not a BM user so not particularly familiar with them, or exactly how 'aggregator' platforms fall under the SAIM rules. SAIM criteria require the platform to have P2P lending permission which BM doesnt have. So the question is whther the underlying platforms permissions validate the loss relief via a third party. If the loans are specific rather than just a basket of holdings then this seems possible. The other issue is that AIUI not all BM loans were P2P loans so is it possible to specifically identify which loans losses are specifically attributed to? The final point is that Collateral loans are not eligible for loss relief on current thinking as the paltform was not authorised so if losses are specific to those loans then they arent eligible.
I see... for anyone - BM didn't reveal who the platforms were that they worked with, so it's not possible to pick the loans apart (each being roughly £20-80 per platform). I would have thought BM would be included in the same category as P2P 'other UK income', 'securities' (I presume P2p is in this section because it is secured?). Also, if it were necessary to differentiate they had different partners throughout the years of operation. What about carry back? ie with lendy, my losses now wipe out 18-19 alongside any estimation of what was classifiable as unrecoverable in-year 18-19. Or can that only be applied retrospectively in the year that L's collapse occurred?
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 23, 2020 9:21:09 GMT
I have also posted this under the "UK P2P Relief" Topic:-
Offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income?
Given the Reciprocal/Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Australia, I imagine it is perfectly acceptable to offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income?
Having left doing my Return until the last minute as usual I doubt if I ask HMRC (assuming I can even get through) that I will be able to get an answer before this tax year end. Thoughts, Oh Learned Ones out there?
Oz is a stonking place for P2P btw, puts the UK in a shameful place.
In advance, I thank you.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Jan 27, 2020 9:44:24 GMT
I have also posted this under the "UK P2P Relief" Topic:- Offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income? Given the Reciprocal/Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Australia, I imagine it is perfectly acceptable to offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income? Having left doing my Return until the last minute as usual I doubt if I ask HMRC (assuming I can even get through) that I will be able to get an answer before this tax year end. Thoughts, Oh Learned Ones out there? Oz is a stonking place for P2P btw, puts the UK in a shameful place. In advance, I thank you. Sorry ozboy I have only just seen this. I don't invest in P2P outside the UK but my understanding of this issue is as follows: 1. Since P2P filing is entered under the Other UK interest, gilts etc section, I don't think it's admissable to include AUS-derived P2P income there at all 2. It would most likely go under Foreign interest (on specific foreign pages) and I'd claim the max Foreign Tax Credit Relief under the UK/AUS DTA which is 10% 3. Note that no AUS-derived P2P losses are classified as deductible under HMRC rules (as not FCA authorized) so gross figure is your baseline 4. For point 3. you file as GBP but depending on your payment frequency may be worth checking whether you are better off using the monthly GBPAUD figures (from HMRC website) or the annual one Just my personal opinion etc. If it's any consolation (I know it's not) I've been calculating future UK tax payable on AUS super. The Double Tax Agreement on that is truly literal 
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Jan 27, 2020 12:34:11 GMT
I have also posted this under the "UK P2P Relief" Topic:- Offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income? Given the Reciprocal/Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Australia, I imagine it is perfectly acceptable to offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income? Having left doing my Return until the last minute as usual I doubt if I ask HMRC (assuming I can even get through) that I will be able to get an answer before this tax year end. Thoughts, Oh Learned Ones out there? Oz is a stonking place for P2P btw, puts the UK in a shameful place. In advance, I thank you. So when you've filed the return - why is p2p Aus good vs UK? Local circumstances? Legislation? other?
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 27, 2020 19:09:14 GMT
I have also posted this under the "UK P2P Relief" Topic:- Offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income? Given the Reciprocal/Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Australia, I imagine it is perfectly acceptable to offset UK P2P Capital Losses against Australian P2P Income? Having left doing my Return until the last minute as usual I doubt if I ask HMRC (assuming I can even get through) that I will be able to get an answer before this tax year end. Thoughts, Oh Learned Ones out there? Oz is a stonking place for P2P btw, puts the UK in a shameful place. In advance, I thank you. So when you've filed the return - why is p2p Aus good vs UK? Local circumstances? Legislation? other? FAR more honest than the UK, with ALL parties concerned. Valuations are reasonably accurate. Platform provided information on Loan offerings is reasonably accurate and informative. NO hanging about on Overdue Loans, after around 90 days Platforms close like a ton of bricks. Personal Guarantees are FAR stronger than the UK, and are enforceable, they "work". A "Regulatory Authority" which is awake and doing its job. SO, chalk and cheese when compared to the thoroughly dishonest and devious mess in the UK. Which for unfathomable reasons most here seem to just shrug and accept as " That's just the way it is."??!!!! And " Yes", I am and have been ramping up my P2P in Oz.  NONE of the foregoing is investment advice, it is only my experience and/or personal opinion, do your own investigations & research.
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