merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Nov 29, 2013 10:01:06 GMT
My eyes were drawn to the statistics page on FC today where there are "facts" concerning the above. I must admit I was rather horrified to see the level at which recoveries were running compared to the level of bad debts. A simple sum of bad debts/recoveries produces a figure of about 19% which while my maths might be wanting, does give an indication of just how good FC are at recovering out hard earned cash. This is worrying me given that few of my investments have even reached their halfway point yet and still have a couple of years plus to run. Anyone else got concerns?
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 29, 2013 11:00:31 GMT
19% is an improvement on what it used to be from what I recall. A deeper analsysis - when done in the past - shows that the recovery rate (by value) is also HEAVILY biased by a few outliers of full or high percentage recovery. How true that still is I don't know: my recollection is that I last looked at this 8-12 months ago. those figures also included one which was in fact a payback by FC due to implied f***d by the borrower (on which payback is covered by Ts and Cs).
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 29, 2013 11:17:02 GMT
Recoveries on FC are never going to be great because the security is typically poor, there is often little of value left when a business fails, and the costs of recovery are high.
The marked improvement to 19% is mostly down to a 50% recovery on 2454, which was the largest loan I have seen on the platform at £300k. The company went into administration after just 3 payments were made, but the business and certain assets were quickly sold by the administrator. In exchange for agreeing to the sale, FC got an immediate 50% payment with the possibility of more to come.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Nov 29, 2013 11:42:35 GMT
Best thing you can do is try to dodge the loans that fail. There will always be a proportion that do. I appreciate this is easier said than done, but there is a lot of information floating around in the public domain these days. When it comes to balance sheet strength, I tend to use the current ratio to make a quick check of the company's means to meet its short term obligations: www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currentratio.aspNothing is foolproof, and it's also worth noting that companies with longer inventory holding times such as Tescos, frequently have a current ratio below one. In the case of Tescos, this is not a problem. It just reflects the fact that they have to consistently keep their shelves full ahead of sales of the actual products to customers. There will always be a lag before an item in inventory is sold. This is my understanding of the ratio anyway, but I'd welcome any further examples from people. On FC, we have the pleasure of helping keep some of Britain's smaller companies in business though, so an assessment of each company's ability to meet its short term obligations is no bad thing. I appreciate that this is largely either historical information (in the case of filed accounts) or management accounts (which can be open to interpretation), but it's better than nothing at all. Seems to have served me pretty well so far this year anyway; only suffered three defaults and most were sub-£20.
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duck
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Post by duck on Nov 29, 2013 17:11:41 GMT
I don't know if I am pessimistic or realistic but when a loan hits the pan I write it off totally in my ROI calcs. If there is some recovery it is a bonus (as in 2454 mentioned earlier) but I have very low expectations.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 29, 2013 21:08:15 GMT
Nothing is foolproof, and it's also worth noting that companies with longer inventory holding times such as Tescos, frequently have a current ratio below one. In the case of Tescos, this is not a problem. It just reflects the fact that they have to consistently keep their shelves full ahead of sales of the actual products to customers. There will always be a lag before an item in inventory is sold. This is my understanding of the ratio anyway, but I'd welcome any further examples from people No expert, not an accountant. Though I did weedle (is that a word ?) on to a basic 2 day 'understanding accounts' (and other things) session paid for by my employer: the main reason I wanted to go was to be a bit more enlightened for the purposes of p2p activities doing my job. This wasn't my understanding in the case of e.g. supermarkets. Inventory times are in fact much much shorter than most other businesses (you don't want your cabbage sitting in a warehouse for the same length of time that the raw materials for some piece of machinery might be sitting there). And of course the big supermarkets are the masters of managing inventory and just in time delivery. The contrast compared to other business is that is so hugely cash generative, and their inventory is short hold NOT long hold, and in addition they will have negotiated longer payment terms with their suppliers: so their stock is sitting there for a much shorter period then when they have to pay for it. They don't have a meaningful debtors balance sheet: ok people rarely pay with cash these days, but the clearance time on card transactions is short. Similar with say a hairdressor: they will have stock (especially if they are also dabbling in retail sales of product) but all their transactions are cash. So no debtors on the books. In a nut, and simplifying, your current assets are assets which you have which you should realise in the 12 month period: debtors (no 30-60-90 payments terms at Tesco's or your hairdressers) and stock which you will shift in 12 months: no stuff sitting in Tesco's warehouse 11 months after they acquired it).
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Post by mead187 on Nov 29, 2013 22:29:48 GMT
Adding to the discussion another variation is acid test ratio aka quick ratio. Quick ratio = (Current Assets – Inventory) / Current liabilities. Useful to see if a company can cover its short term debts without the value of its stock. Stock can be most illiquid of all current assets. E.g Clothes can go out of fashion, Electronics can become obsolete, Food can become out of date. Are the loan comments getting slightly better recently? I'm rather surprised with 3234 today, FC have moved fast and the comments are in full sentences! The loan is asset secured and the company will be going into administration on Monday. Furthermore " The full monthly loan repayments will be taken on by a new company over which we shall be taking all asset security to further protect investors. We expect payments to resume in mid-December." It's not ideal but looks like a lucky escape, one for the auto bidders in mid December
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Nov 30, 2013 23:00:33 GMT
Thanks guys for your comments. You sure put a different perspective on the subject other than just depending on the raw figures from FC statistics. I had previously assumed that the predicted failure rates would be roughly similar to the A to C categories of the loans. It looks like failures may in fact be running a little lower than FC predicted. However we really will not know the complete answer until a lot more loans have run their full course. Am I guessing right?
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Dec 1, 2013 9:08:18 GMT
The loss rates on FC are running below the predictions because the portfolios are immature. Although I have no statistics on how the failure rate on FC loans varies over time, the failure rate on business loans would be expected to peak after the business plan has had time to fail. Very often this will be 2-3 years down the road. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I would tend to assume that FC have a handle on the statistics and that their predictions are the best available estimate of the long run loss rates. I don't think it's in their interest to significantly under- or over-estimate losses.
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maxmarengo
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Post by maxmarengo on Dec 1, 2013 9:37:23 GMT
The rapid growth of the FC platform is making the default performance look much better than it actually is. I will post some stats in the next few days if I get time. My view is that the impact of defaults over the lifetime of a loan is a reduction in annual return of around 3% - so 50% worse that the FC guideline.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Dec 1, 2013 11:30:23 GMT
Nothing is foolproof, and it's also worth noting that companies with longer inventory holding times such as Tescos, frequently have a current ratio below one. In the case of Tescos, this is not a problem. It just reflects the fact that they have to consistently keep their shelves full ahead of sales of the actual products to customers. There will always be a lag before an item in inventory is sold. This is my understanding of the ratio anyway, but I'd welcome any further examples from people No expert, not an accountant. Though I did weedle (is that a word ?) on to a basic 2 day 'understanding accounts' (and other things) session paid for by my employer: the main reason I wanted to go was to be a bit more enlightened for the purposes of p2p activities doing my job. This wasn't my understanding in the case of e.g. supermarkets. Inventory times are in fact much much shorter than most other businesses (you don't want your cabbage sitting in a warehouse for the same length of time that the raw materials for some piece of machinery might be sitting there). And of course the big supermarkets are the masters of managing inventory and just in time delivery. The contrast compared to other business is that is so hugely cash generative, and their inventory is short hold NOT long hold, and in addition they will have negotiated longer payment terms with their suppliers: so their stock is sitting there for a much shorter period then when they have to pay for it. They don't have a meaningful debtors balance sheet: ok people rarely pay with cash these days, but the clearance time on card transactions is short. Similar with say a hairdressor: they will have stock (especially if they are also dabbling in retail sales of product) but all their transactions are cash. So no debtors on the books. In a nut, and simplifying, your current assets are assets which you have which you should realise in the 12 month period: debtors (no 30-60-90 payments terms at Tesco's or your hairdressers) and stock which you will shift in 12 months: no stuff sitting in Tesco's warehouse 11 months after they acquired it). Wow, I should have replied sooner. Loads of new posts since you posted this response, so I'm breaking the flow now. Anyway, thanks for responding and clarifying Tesco's current ratio. Your explanation makes far more sense than mine (which was niggling me as I was typing it to be honest). I was aware that Tescos have a low current ratio, but was trying to figure out/reason why. Longer payment terms would certainly increase current liabilities, and you're absolutely right that they'd have the clout to do this. I didn't consider this; got too wrapped up in inventory-based explanations reasoning they stock a lot of goods with a long shelf life - not all food is fresh.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Dec 1, 2013 11:40:30 GMT
@ maxmarengo I look forward to your numbers, and to finding out how you have derived them. The only way I can think of is from monthly downloads of FC's portfolio, going back a long time, which I don't have unfortunately.
If you are right, this bodes very badly for the future of FC. I'd expect any sophisticated investor, armed with this information, to adopt a strategy of selling after X months before the tail end losses start to bite. At which point the losses end up even more concentrated in the hands of the less sophisticated / autobidders, and the FCA might step in to regulate or close the secondary market for their protection.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 1, 2013 16:20:24 GMT
got too wrapped up in inventory-based explanations reasoning they stock a lot of goods with a long shelf life - not all food is fresh. Yeah, but even their long shelf life products will be short shelf life in Tesco's warehouses: they will always try to get as close to just in time delivery from their suppliers as possible and hold as little inventory as possible: inventory = tied up capital plus lack of agility in responding to changes in consumer demand (weather driven for example, not consumer trends which would have a longer cycle).
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
Posts: 902
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Post by merlin on Dec 1, 2013 17:51:22 GMT
@ maxmarengo I look forward to your numbers, and to finding out how you have derived them. The only way I can think of is from monthly downloads of FC's portfolio, going back a long time, which I don't have unfortunately. If you are right, this bodes very badly for the future of FC. I'd expect any sophisticated investor, armed with this information, to adopt a strategy of selling after X months before the tail end losses start to bite. At which point the losses end up even more concentrated in the hands of the less sophisticated / autobidders, and the FCA might step in to regulate or close the secondary market for their protection. I too look forward to seeing @ maxmarengo's numbers and I also agree with what you say about selling before the tail catch comes round to bit you. In support of this there is a well quoted statistic suggesting that most loans fail at around 2.7 years in. Just how and where this comes from I do not know but I sure would like to know!
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Dec 1, 2013 20:40:23 GMT
Most of my failures on FC occurred some 3 - 6 months in. There were also warning signs, i.e. late payments, before the default occurred.
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