IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2019 8:10:13 GMT
In answer to the original question: a consensual soft Brexit was achievable, would have reflected the (close) vote of the electorate, and could have led to further negotiations from a position of strength over time.
2.5 years of deepening division later, I am not sure that consensus can now be reached, and I think it highly likely that TMs deal does not reflect their vote (opinion polls show huge majority against TM's deal).
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on Jan 15, 2019 10:26:21 GMT
Cadbury moved a factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant. Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant. Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steelworks and emptied the worker's pension funds. Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. Dyson went to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), go to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200. M&S manufacturing gone too far east with EU loan. Hornby models are gone. In fact, all toys and models now have gone from the UK along with the patents all with EU grants. the Texas Instruments Greenock has gone to Germany with EU grant. Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant. Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding. Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to the Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing. ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. JDS Uniphase run by two Dutchmen bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company. Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies. The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part-owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF says the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online. Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK?
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce the food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there. I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this. Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't.
EU policies on mass immigration have fuelled levels of nationalism not seen since the second world war. A policy started by Merkel to deliver cheap labour to booming German industrial giants.
To date the Government's handling of Brexit has been a complete disgrace!
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 15, 2019 10:35:51 GMT
EU policies on mass immigration have fuelled levels of nationalism not seen since the second world war. A policy started by Merkel to deliver cheap labour to booming German industrial giants. Struck me as significant that when Merkel decided to offer 'refuge' to hundreds of thousands of refugees/economic immigrants, she didn't bother to consult her EU colleagues despite the obvious impact on neighbouring countries. A lot of the rise in the far right in eastern Europe could be put down to her.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Jan 15, 2019 11:06:03 GMT
Seems like today's vote is clearly a NO but will be interesting to see how many would be needed to swing it to a YES in the next vote. I think that it will be a lot closer than is expected and after some more "compromises" from EU, it will ultimately get voted through as hard brexiteers will realise it is a choice between that or no brexit at all
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 15, 2019 11:21:00 GMT
Cadbury moved a factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant. Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant. Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steelworks and emptied the worker's pension funds. Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. Dyson went to Malaysia, with an EU loan. Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), go to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200. M&S manufacturing gone too far east with EU loan. Hornby models are gone. In fact, all toys and models now have gone from the UK along with the patents all with EU grants. the Texas Instruments Greenock has gone to Germany with EU grant. Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant. Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding. Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to the Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing. ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. JDS Uniphase run by two Dutchmen bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. UK airports are owned by a Spanish company. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company. Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies. The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part-owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF says the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online. Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU. The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently. Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK? I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce the food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there. I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this. Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. EU policies on mass immigration have fuelled levels of nationalism not seen since the second world war. A policy started by Merkel to deliver cheap labour to booming German industrial giants. To date the Government's handling of Brexit has been a complete disgrace! I genuinely don't understand this. I'm happy to accept that the details in the post above are accurate but it seems to me that you're saying that it's ok for UK companies to invest overseas but not ok for foreign companies to invest in the UK? There are many examples of FDI industrial investment in the UK, the one that springs to mind, because of the nexus with the Brexit vote, being the Nissan plant in Sunderland. As to "one major technology company still running in the UK" how about Arm? Sure, it's now owned by Softbank (and Arm shareholders did very well out of it) but it is still headquartered in the UK and still does all of its RND here. www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/ukforeigndirectinvestmenttrendsandanalysis/july2018
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 15, 2019 13:35:16 GMT
but really had no idea how leaving would/could be achieved with a cross party consensus, clearly that's not achievable. would support the British electorate and deliver Brexit, as was voted for TM didn't even try to achieve any consensus, which a good leader would have done on such a close result. She instead tried to appease her right wing, set up unnecessary "red lines", set course for a hard and divisive Brexit and was extremely denigratory to her opponents and to Parliament. I don't believe she could have got cross-party support for Brexit i) only staying in the EU (literally or so close as makes no difference) would satisfy Labour's tests ii) Corbyn & co would never be able to bring themselves to support May in anything iii) Labour supporters wouldn't countenance their party supporting the Tories
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 15, 2019 13:58:02 GMT
Rather than simply repeating lists that are "doing the rounds", esp. in these days of fake news, it would be better if actual evidence that the statements were true were offerred up. While the moves may / did occur, what is the evidence that "they were with EU grants/loans/monies" ? As one particular website says:
"All these factories did indeed move overseas. But not with EU money. Sticking “with EU grant” on the end of a sentence doesn’t make it a fact."
This site contains discussion / refutation / relevance of nearly all (if not all) on this list (Its a list that is "doing the rounds" as they say).
Since I've not delved deeply into most of those, I can't vouch for its veracity of all of it.
On the other hand, you hardly need to be a brain surgeon - or indeed work in the defence industry - to know that a story which takes the decision of the UK Govt / MOD to contract General Dynamics Ltd (UK company with US parent) to design/build/supply the Ajax (or Scout SV as it then was) which had an significant element of Spanish construction would have anything to do with "being at the request of the EU" . Tosh. And as such makes all other statements worthy of more than cursory acceptance at face value.
For those with even minor interest. The vehicle is an evolution/based on a joint Spanish/Austrian army vehicle (with the Spanish manufacturing arm being a sub of GD). There are (or were) 589 on order, and the final 489 of those are manufactured in the UK (Wales). Lockheed Martin UK (another UK arm of a US company) has the contract to provide the turret for the reconnaissance variant (about half of the build).
In the original competition, BAE systems was the other competitor in the final two. It was rumoured at the time that the BAE proposal had lower UK content than the GD proposal. No idea whether that was correct or not. Either way, some may feel that BAEs decades old attitude that it has a god given right to get high value contracts from the MOD on the basis that they are the UK industrial champion, at the same time failing to be competitive or deliver value, might have had some part to play. Or not.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2019 14:03:03 GMT
TM didn't even try to achieve any consensus, which a good leader would have done on such a close result. She instead tried to appease her right wing, set up unnecessary "red lines", set course for a hard and divisive Brexit and was extremely denigratory to her opponents and to Parliament. I don't believe she could have got cross-party support for Brexit i) only staying in the EU (literally or so close as makes no difference) would satisfy Labour's tests ii) Corbyn & co would never be able to bring themselves to support May in anything iii) Labour supporters wouldn't countenance their party supporting the Tories
We'll never know. I wouldn't underestimate Corbyn's fundamental Euroscepticism, cloaked in a fear of losing the Northern heartlands. They happily whipped their vote in support of TM activating Article 50. TM could have dared them to oppose a soft Brexit - I don't think they would have back then. Now it's all a bit different & even more polarised: Labour members/voters have swung further against Leave than they were 2.5 years ago, and Tory members have swung towards an ultra-hard, no deal Brexit (both of which I would say were not inevitable with better, consensual leadership).
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2019 14:06:13 GMT
Seems like today's vote is clearly a NO but will be interesting to see how many would be needed to swing it to a YES in the next vote. I think that it will be a lot closer than is expected and after some more "compromises" from EU, it will ultimately get voted through as hard brexiteers will realise it is a choice between that or no brexit at all Except BoJo et al have said that remaining is better than TM's deal if that is the choice.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Jan 15, 2019 14:07:36 GMT
I don't believe she could have got cross-party support for Brexit i) only staying in the EU (literally or so close as makes no difference) would satisfy Labour's tests ii) Corbyn & co would never be able to bring themselves to support May in anything iii) Labour supporters wouldn't countenance their party supporting the Tories
We'll never know. I wouldn't underestimate Corbyn's fundamental Euroscepticism, cloaked in a fear of losing the Northern heartlands. They happily whipped their vote in support of TM activating Article 50. TM could have dared them to oppose a soft Brexit - I don't think they would have back then. Now it's all a bit different & even more polarised: Labour members/voters have swung further against Leave than they were 2.5 years ago, and Tory members have swung towards an ultra-hard, no deal Brexit (both of which I would say were not inevitable with better, consensual leadership). Some fairly industrial strength stereotyping there.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Jan 15, 2019 14:12:33 GMT
Seems like today's vote is clearly a NO but will be interesting to see how many would be needed to swing it to a YES in the next vote. I think that it will be a lot closer than is expected and after some more "compromises" from EU, it will ultimately get voted through as hard brexiteers will realise it is a choice between that or no brexit at all Except BoJo et al have said that remaining is better than TM's deal if that is the choice. You mean the same fella that wrote an article for each side - and then tossed a coin? Well, I wouldn't pay much attention to what he says. He also said yesterday we are 100% leaving on 29 March. Away with the fairies sadly
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 15, 2019 14:29:03 GMT
Seems like today's vote is clearly a NO but will be interesting to see how many would be needed to swing it to a YES in the next vote. I think that it will be a lot closer than is expected and after some more "compromises" from EU, it will ultimately get voted through as hard brexiteers will realise it is a choice between that or no brexit at all Except BoJo et al have said that remaining is better than TM's deal if that is the choice. But they're not the only choices.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2019 14:31:33 GMT
We'll never know. I wouldn't underestimate Corbyn's fundamental Euroscepticism, cloaked in a fear of losing the Northern heartlands. They happily whipped their vote in support of TM activating Article 50. TM could have dared them to oppose a soft Brexit - I don't think they would have back then. Now it's all a bit different & even more polarised: Labour members/voters have swung further against Leave than they were 2.5 years ago, and Tory members have swung towards an ultra-hard, no deal Brexit (both of which I would say were not inevitable with better, consensual leadership). Some fairly industrial strength stereotyping there. Not stereotyping anyone - look at the polls of Labour and Tory members, and look at Corbyn's voting record. Whom do you think I am stereotyping?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2019 14:32:33 GMT
Except BoJo et al have said that remaining is better than TM's deal if that is the choice. But they're not the only choices.
Agreed - but was responding to the point made in the other post that they would align behind TM's deal if no Brexit was the likely alternative
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2019 14:33:12 GMT
Except BoJo et al have said that remaining is better than TM's deal if that is the choice. You mean the same fella that wrote an article for each side - and then tossed a coin? Well, I wouldn't pay much attention to what he says. He also said yesterday we are 100% leaving on 29 March. Away with the fairies sadly We can agree on that at least!
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