registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 24, 2019 14:32:13 GMT
But here's the rub, the UK government has already agreed that there will be no hard border. And until a solution (let's call it BoJo's technical one just for the sake of argument) the backstop will be in place.
Hence impasse.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Jan 24, 2019 14:42:39 GMT
So ... ROI are desperate for a deal with the UK ... how surprising!!
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 24, 2019 14:44:03 GMT
But here's the rub, the UK government has already agreed that there will be no hard border. And until a solution (let's call it BoJo's technical one just for the sake of argument) the backstop will be in place. Hence impasse. I agree it's a problem. Even if May's deal gets through, I suspect the EU will use it again in trade negotiations, e.g. "give us access to all of your fishing grounds and keep your own fishing boats in port or there'll be no agreement and we'll have to have a hard border (and violence will kick off again)". Too close to blackmail. UK should ignore it.
On the subject of no deal - I understand why (most) people want to avoid no deal, but simply suggesting that no deal be removed as a default is only half of the story. If people don't want no deal as the default, they need to replace it with something else. I suspect a lot of the people pressing for removal of no deal want Remain as the default, but don't have the honesty to come out and say so.
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carolus
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Post by carolus on Jan 24, 2019 14:52:25 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 24, 2019 14:55:43 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
No.
It's the stated direction of the EU ("ever closer union") that I object to, as I don't believe it has popular support across the whole of the EU. Also have a problem with the lack of democracy in how the EU runs. Before you/others leap on the second point saying it is democratic in your view, I'd need to see both points resolved before I change my mind.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Jan 24, 2019 14:57:00 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
Science would also seek to see if the opposite was true.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 24, 2019 14:58:07 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
I suspect, a time machine might do it ... for either side.
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Jan 24, 2019 15:00:45 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
Yes. If the EU wrote into law that they would cease 'ever closer political union,' commit to gradually lowering all trade barriers and set up a rule that for every new law introduced that 2 old ones would be repealed until the rulebook was 1/10 it's current size I'd be warming to the idea!
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Jan 24, 2019 15:05:44 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
I voted remain. But the country voted to leave - so I swapped sides. I think that is what everyone should have done and been united to get the best brexit. So no nothing would make me change my mind about following the vote. The arguments for/against ended 2 years ago as far as I am concerned. Is there anything that could make you change your mind and accept democracy?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 24, 2019 15:15:34 GMT
Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator, has played down suggestions that Article 50 should be extended as he warned MPs that they need to agree on a deal. In an interview with DLF radio, Mr Barnier said: "What we have now is a double majority against the deal on the one hand and against the no deal on the other. " But we need something that is positively accepted as an agreement." (my use of bold) "In order to avoid this difficulty of leaving without an agreement, this no-deal, it is not enough to vote against the no-deal. No, you have to vote for a contract, an agreement.
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carolus
Member of DD Central
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Post by carolus on Jan 24, 2019 15:27:06 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
Science would also seek to see if the opposite was true. Of course, an entirely fair question. Had the whole thing been approached in a sensible fashion, building a consensus on the destination and the plan for getting there supported by genuine evidence that this would result in a better and more prosperous future for out country, then I could have been persuaded.
However, this is not at all what we've seen. Instead we've had a government rushing headlong into triggering article 50, laying down impossible redlines and then wasting what little negotiating time remained bickering within their own party. We now face the prospect of a no-deal Brexit, the champions of which appear to be willing to say or do anything to get it, despite they themselves having their escape routes set up, whether that be through wealth or simply jumping ship from the country entirely, ensuring that it isn't they who will face economic difficulties or loss of freedoms. Meanwhile, the slightest suggestion that there could be an issue appears to be shouted down with combinations of populist rhetoric and insults (Remoaners, Saboteurs, Traitors et al.).
As it is, I despair. I could have been persuaded, there could have been an attempt to build unity on the issue. Instead there's simply been a doubling down on the rhetoric and divisions, and I would go so far as to say that no-one has had the slightest interest in bringing those who voted Remain on board, beyond "Will of the people" and the like. So yes, I was open to being persuaded. Nothing has persuaded me yet, however, and no-one has made any meaningful attempt to. From where I'm standing we're heading towards disaster.
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carolus
Member of DD Central
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Post by carolus on Jan 24, 2019 15:33:35 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts: Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
No. So there is no point at which the costs of leaving would outweigh your perceived benefits below? Does this mean you viewed Cameron's opt-out of "ever closer union" as insufficient?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jan 24, 2019 15:56:01 GMT
Q:So there is no point at which the costs of leaving would outweigh your perceived benefits below? A: Yes there is a point e.g. if it turned out that the UK lost (say) 30% of GDP, I'd probably 'give in'. However, I'm not going to agree to Remain simply because somebody forecasts a drop of 30% because i) the people doing the forecasts are not unbiased (hence biased). We've seen some figures out of BoE saying there'll be a drop over (say) 10 years, but I've never come across people who could forecast accurately even a couple of years out, never mind 10. If the cost is 'minor' (each person to decide what that means), I'm happy to accept it as the cost of democracy.
(What would Canada do if somebody 'proved' (i.e. forecast) their citizens would be better off financially, if they dissolved their parliament and let the USA run their affairs. Would Canadians vote for it? I very much doubt it, I suspect they'd favour democracy over a (claimed) small increase in wealth)
Q:Does this mean you viewed Cameron's opt-out of "ever closer union" as insufficient? A: Yes. How could that ever work? e.g. EU says "financial service companies will have to do XYZ on/after 2021". If the UK viewed that as part of 'ever closer union', would they say "sorry, can't implement that, as you promised we wouldn't have to". EU would say "fine, your choice, but now the city can't trade in/with Europe". UK would then cave. Anyway, you should either be fully in a union, or not at all. Something the UK with its "sorry, don't accept the Euro etc." has never been good with.
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I agree with you that the process of leaving hasn't been handled well. However, I suspect that if May had reached out to the wider HoC, we'd have ended up with the referendum being ignored, given a majority of MPs wish to Remain. Accept your point that some of the comments towards Remainers (Remoaners, Traitors,..) hasn't been helpful, but neither have the huge number of comments towards Leavers ('it was a protest vote', 'they didn't understand what they were voting for', 'bunch of racists'..).
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 24, 2019 18:11:42 GMT
As a matter of interest, if I wanted an honest and impartial assessment of the likely effects of no deal where should I look?
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Post by captainconfident on Jan 24, 2019 18:51:34 GMT
In the name of scientific enquiry towards our resident brexit enthusiasts:
Is there any possible information, or source, or evidence that would result in you changing your mind about the merits of leaving the EU?
No.
It's the stated direction of the EU ("ever closer union") that I object to, as I don't believe it has popular support across the whole of the EU. Also have a problem with the lack of democracy in how the EU runs. Before you/others leap on the second point saying it is democratic in your view, I'd need to see both points resolved before I change my mind.
The EU is a model of democracy compared to the disgraceful first past the post system used in the UK. Surely the mess on your own doorstep should concern you more. Secondly, I've lived in Germany, NL and Belgium these last 20 years, and I can honestly say that nobody is in the least concerned about the EU, has any opinion or ever talks about it. It is a particular British obsession. The common attitude to Brexit is that you have all gone insane. "Ever closer union" was an objective once stated, but there have been no moves towards anything like it for years now. That and a vague assertion that the EU "lacks democracy" is sufficient grounds to vote for long term damage to your country's economy?
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