IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 18, 2019 18:56:29 GMT
I understand there are a lot of people that feel very strongly about remaining and think that Brexit will be damaging to the country, but do any remainers here not feel that having a second referendum on whether to leave is a dangerous precedent to set for our democracy? This is a good question, and one I keep coming back to. I have to admit that I am confused and conflicted about it, and don't, as yet, have an answer that I have settled on. On the one hand:- * I was a remainer, and think that staying a part of the EU is in the best interests of the country. * Whilst I accept that "project fear" included some (possibly deliberate) inaccurate forecasts, I believe that the various leave campaigns outright lied to the electorate. * I don't have the same fears of an overarching EU federal state as some do, and I think the UK will be poorer, meaner, less interesting, and less important on the world stage as a result of leaving. * I think the chances of the UK breaking up have increased markedly, and this saddens me. * I am not comfortable with the most likely measure of leaving's success - the implosion of the EU or the Euro. Beggar my neighbour and being glad about it isn't my style. * The essence of democracy is being able to change your mind and thus change direction. On the other hand:- * I accept the result of the vote (as flawed as I think the whole operation was). * I do agree that holding another vote will be damaging to our democracy, or, as copacetic said in the quote above, "... a dangerous precedent to set for our democracy". * In the past I was contemptuous of France, Ireland and Denmark (?) (and the EU itself) when they held second referendums because the results appeared to go against the wishes of the political elite of those countries and the EU. Taking a different view just because it's Blighty at issue strikes me as hypocritical. * There's an aspect of my view that says "ok, let's take our medicine then". * A referendum is different to reasonably regularly scheduled elections and we can't have, and shouldn't attempt to have, them "just because". So I guess I don't have a good answer as of now, and what position I do eventually settle on may well be the result of a) where we find ourselves and b) what question(s) might be posed by any such second referendum.How about asking us on the only actual deal on the table? That's a different question to the referendum in 2016, and the referendum in 1975.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 18, 2019 19:23:41 GMT
You can either argue that each of the decisions to relocate some or all production or resources out of the UK - Sony, Panasonic, Nissan, Honda, BlackRock, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Unilever, Schaeffler, etc etc - is not necessarily or even mostly related to Brexit. Or you can put it together and see a pattern. Or you can add on the end of each "with a grant from the EU" as it makes better headlines
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 18, 2019 19:50:13 GMT
Feels like we could be heading rapidly towards a GE
Won't take many to wipe out the Tory/DUP majority.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 18, 2019 20:11:23 GMT
doesn't mean they would vote against the govt in a no-confidence vote.
If we have a GE right now, not only will it be a disaster for the country at this critical time, but we'd also be the laughing stock (again) of the world.
I'm not sure this particular group of politicians will a) think a GE is in their interests when this is such an embryonic grouping or b) are cut from the Corbyn cloth of thinking that a GE is the best outcome (more party politics ahead of the country's interests).
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 18, 2019 20:33:27 GMT
Feels like we could be heading rapidly towards a GE
Won't take many to wipe out the Tory/DUP majority.
If the new Group will take Anna Soubry I'll consider giving them a donation
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Feb 18, 2019 21:11:44 GMT
Feels like we could be heading rapidly towards a GE
Won't take many to wipe out the Tory/DUP majority.
If the new Group will take Anna Soubry I'll consider giving them a donation Take her where?
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Feb 18, 2019 21:13:52 GMT
GE: maybe Boris will become Britain's version of Berlusconi?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 18, 2019 21:24:34 GMT
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 18, 2019 21:28:29 GMT
If the new Group will take Anna Soubry I'll consider giving them a donation Take her where? As long as it's out of the Tory party, I don't really care.
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Post by df on Feb 18, 2019 21:33:29 GMT
doesn't mean they would vote against the govt in a no-confidence vote.
If we have a GE right now, not only will it be a disaster for the country at this critical time, but we'd also be the laughing stock (again) of the world.
I'm not sure this particular group of politicians will a) think a GE is in their interests when this is such an embryonic grouping or b) are cut from the Corbyn cloth of thinking that a GE is the best outcome (more party politics ahead of the country's interests).
As for reputation, if we have GE now and JC becomes PM it will reverse the trend.
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starfished
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Post by starfished on Feb 18, 2019 21:35:33 GMT
There was a time when most people recognised that big parties meant compromise. We seem to have entered a place where unless everyone supports my purist interpretation of my party, they should leave. We are in danger of turning important political process (political parties) into echo chambers, just like the social media enclaves.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 18, 2019 22:13:36 GMT
"In a tweet, Mr Tomlinson said: "Honda are clear this is based on global trends and not Brexit, as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021."
So not really anything relevant here.
Apropos nothing. Twitter: 10th Jan 2019: (mr) Justin Tomlinson:
"Honda are making preparations for any scenario, they remain committed to Swindon. As the Snr Vice President of Europe has reinforced; Swindon is crucial part of their entire global production network. I have worked closely with them and they fully support the PMs Brexit deal"
As you rightly point out, quoting the rRght Honorable Member for Parliament Justin Tomlinson falls into the "not really anything relevant here" category.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 18, 2019 22:30:39 GMT
GE: maybe Boris will become Britain's version of Berlusconi? Always thought Berlusconi was a complete tosser, until I realised he was worth about £5b.
His only redeeming feature was that his campaign manager was called Bob Lasagna
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 18, 2019 22:42:33 GMT
Feels like we could be heading rapidly towards a GE
Won't take many to wipe out the Tory/DUP majority.
I'm old enough to remember the gang of 4, and what an anti climax that turned out to be.
Can't see the gang of 7 (or 11) wanting an election any time soon, as half will be out on their ear.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Feb 18, 2019 22:58:32 GMT
doesn't mean they would vote against the govt in a no-confidence vote.
If we have a GE right now, not only will it be a disaster for the country at this critical time, but we'd also be the laughing stock (again) of the world.
I'm not sure this particular group of politicians will a) think a GE is in their interests when this is such an embryonic grouping or b) are cut from the Corbyn cloth of thinking that a GE is the best outcome (more party politics ahead of the country's interests).
As for reputation, if we have GE now and JC becomes PM it will reverse the trend. Sorry took me a while to get up from the floor after laughing at your suggestion. With 7 less MPs and a personal rating lower than an ISIS bride I would think that a Labour Party lead by JC would never win GE.
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