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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Jan 30, 2019 14:07:49 GMT
I've been looking at the secondary market and find that some of the recent trades/valuations don't make much sense to me. This is most apparent when the debenture in question has rolled up interest payable in the future (or event driven). The new IRR calculation shows me that I can get 4-8% IRR for most investments but 20%+ on a few of the other ones. I don't know if it's because of people only wanting to pay the market price for things and the market isn't valuing them properly (you could say that they have risk involved but I don't think that can account for the huge difference in expected returns).
Any thoughts from anyone else?
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scc
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Post by scc on Jan 31, 2019 13:36:27 GMT
Could be a bunch of things, but except on a few rare occasions I've never thought of abundance debentures on the secondary market as undervalued. I did once manage to pick one up for 95% of its cost price...
It could be that the 20%+ ones are long term ones which offer a mix of capital and interest payments. As they get older, the effective interest rate goes up considerably. But that has to be balanced by inflation and opportunity cost.
As we've seen elsewhere, event driven and/or long term debentures are not without risk - even if there's a good history of payments. Even though I hold quite a few of the longer term debentures, I'm more and more sceptical that they won't be paid off early or negotiated down.
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Post by justdabbling on Feb 10, 2019 11:59:19 GMT
Because each project has a different model the debentures are difficult to value.
For I** P**** S****** there is a 15% additional interest payable if one project has planning permission I think by the time the initial period of the debenture has passed in 1 year 4 months time. The last update states that planning permission has been applied for for one project and that it is expected to take a year. For other projects there are plans to submit planning applications during 2019. There is also provision for the debentures to be extended by 2 years at a rate of 6%. This is, therefore, a gamble on whether the planning permission will be gained on time; however, the calculator uses the 15% rate to calculate the end return but I reckon there is at least a 50-50 chance that it will be extended by two years at a rate of 6%.
I suspect that a lot of the trades on the secondary market are by traders. For example, I put something up for sale to reduce my exposure to risk on that project and someone bid at my reserve price; meanwhile he also offered the same debenture for the same amount for sale and then, when my sale period was over, did not immediately agree to proceeding with the purchase. He did, though ask to proceed with the purchase when he had received an at least equivalent bid on his sale offer. This seems to be trading and using the time lags in the system to avoid any risk.
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Feb 11, 2019 16:30:19 GMT
The market place is a bit funny - you see some strange prices where someone will be selling something at +4% and have no takers and someone will have bid +5% for about the same amount of a loan.
The funniest pricing I see is for loans C****c loans - these are ones that I have been buying. The have an IRR of 25% based on buying at +10% which is very high. Buy £1000 for £1100 now and receive £1335 at the end of the year. Maybe return of capital is more important than return but still... Compare that to debentures on a fixed 5% debenture which seems to be trading at around the same premium.
Regarding trading - I don't know if the volumes are big enough to make it worthwhile as a full time job. The top two loans on the marketplace are full of sellers and few buyers and parts are selling at par - which is not a bad price to pick them up at I think. But rubbish if you are a flipper hoping to make a quick buck.
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Post by justdabbling on Feb 11, 2019 17:01:28 GMT
I think the market place has changed since the missed payments and restructuring of M***** V*****C** and related missed payments on M***** V*****B******, the proposals currently being put to lenders for G*** S******* and the repayment with only 2% for U***** D**** G********.
Before these events high premiums were being paid. The calculator has also had an effect and made offers more sensible.
There has been no update since June 2018 for C****** R********* G********** so I have sold some of my holding thinking that capital + 10% now is a fair enough deal, although I will hang on to some as it might pay off. Maybe this explains why the high returns are not attracting higher purchase offers?
The market is strange but it takes a bit of homework to work out the risk with each loan. Clearly those paying back capital as they go along, amortising? I believe, are much less risky and as the years go by they pay a high rate when the interest has been fixed to be equal in terms of cash returns along the whole period of the loan. The deals that are most out of line are for small amounts so buyers and sellers not bothered enough to spend time reading the updates etc. I wonder if some are taking advantage of this and splitting loans into small parts for sale?
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dzo
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Post by dzo on Feb 13, 2019 19:37:46 GMT
The deals that are most out of line are for small amounts so buyers and sellers not bothered enough to spend time reading the updates etc. I wonder if some are taking advantage of this and splitting loans into small parts for sale? There definitely are. You see the same names cropping up on bids for large parts and offers of lots of small parts. I don't know how the effort involved can be worthwhile though. Maybe they use bots.
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Post by justdabbling on Feb 15, 2019 6:19:11 GMT
Yes, that is a possibility that had not occurred to me.
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Feb 15, 2019 8:31:28 GMT
The markeyplace is funny isn't it. There are a few sellers who consistently have parts for sale at +15% when others have them at 5%. I don't know how many or who often they sell but they are not exactly priced to sell.
Personally, I've found buying easier than selling - but all the emails make it a bit slow and difficult. Having a "buy it now!" button might improve things like on other platforms.
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scc
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Post by scc on Feb 19, 2019 5:24:21 GMT
I think the market place has changed since the missed payments and restructuring of M***** V*****C** and related missed payments on M***** V*****B******, the proposals currently being put to lenders for G*** S******* and the repayment with only 2% for U***** D**** G********. snippedThere has been no update since June 2018 for C****** R********* G********** so I have sold some of my holding thinking that capital + 10% now is a fair enough deal, although I will hang on to some as it might pay off. Maybe this explains why the high returns are not attracting higher purchase offers? Good assessment. Getting out of GS and UDG was part of my de-risking approach last year after MVC. I similarly reduced my exposure to CRG too. I'll still accumulate Abundance debentures when they seem good value, but at a much lower level than before - especially now they are doing less new build renewables. I didn't go for the liverpool housing one either because it looked both optimistic and expensive for relatively low return.
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Feb 19, 2019 11:32:25 GMT
On housing projects, the net margin for housebuilders seems to be around 20% and Abundance offer 4.5%. Those numbers don't stack up for me.
But I still think that there are some decently priced debentures out there. I don't think that the prices paid reflect the value and some are over priced and others are underpriced.
It is about balance and risk - I woudln't want to just be holding one debenture and hoping for the best!
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Post by justdabbling on Feb 21, 2019 21:23:13 GMT
I think the market place has changed since the missed payments and restructuring of M***** V*****C** and related missed payments on M***** V*****B******, the proposals currently being put to lenders for G*** S******* and the repayment with only 2% for U***** D**** G********. snippedThere has been no update since June 2018 for C****** R********* G********** so I have sold some of my holding thinking that capital + 10% now is a fair enough deal, although I will hang on to some as it might pay off. Maybe this explains why the high returns are not attracting higher purchase offers? Good assessment. Getting out of GS and UDG was part of my de-risking approach last year after MVC. I similarly reduced my exposure to CRG too. I'll still accumulate Abundance debentures when they seem good value, but at a much lower level than before.
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Post by justdabbling on Feb 21, 2019 21:25:22 GMT
Indeed, the loans for initial development have proved to be quite high risk lately.
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