trium
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Post by trium on Feb 28, 2019 12:50:37 GMT
Here's a new one on me - this banner has appeared on my Statements page (Standard not ISA) -
And what exactly would be the point? Are they going to tell me how to obtain better returns? Are they going to explain why my investment has NEVER achieved the "target return" which they pull out of thin air every week and mail it to me in an "update", just to wind me up?
Zopa has gone from great to absolute rubbish over the 7+ years I've been there. My current 52-week IRR is 3.23% and getting worse every week. Over the last 8 weeks it annualises to just 0.4%. This from mainly Plus with some residual safeguarded Classic.
I would recycle into Core but they won't lend it out until I have accumulated a minimum £1000. If I want to do that on both standard and ISA that's £2000, patronisingly they tell me it's to ensure I'm properly diversified. I already have over 1900 loans and I do not need anyone to worry about my diversification.
Sorry to rant but that banner got my back up.
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aju
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Post by aju on Feb 28, 2019 14:19:57 GMT
Here's a new one on me - this banner has appeared on my Statements page (Standard not ISA) - And what exactly would be the point? Are they going to tell me how to obtain better returns? Are they going to explain why my investment has NEVER achieved the "target return" which they pull out of thin air every week and mail it to me in an "update", just to wind me up? Zopa has gone from great to absolute rubbish over the 7+ years I've been there. My current 52-week IRR is 3.23% and getting worse every week. Over the last 8 weeks it annualises to just 0.4%. This from mainly Plus with some residual safeguarded Classic.
I would recycle into Core but they won't lend it out until I have accumulated a minimum £1000. If I want to do that on both standard and ISA that's £2000, patronisingly they tell me it's to ensure I'm properly diversified. I already have over 1900 loans and I do not need anyone to worry about my diversification.
Sorry to rant but that banner got my back up.I love a good rant every now and again so you Rant if you want to trium, its fine with me. I agree on the £1000 core limitation too - I usually look at my products as a whole most of the time but then I am in 20/80 Plus/Other(Core and SG) from quite a while back so it does not really affect either me or Mrs Aju these days. I wonder what mine says - I haven't checked - but I know this month my invest account is -£1 after default, bonus, and recoveries too. I am running it down and out to Mrs Aju's RS but that's the 1st time since starting in Zopa in 2005/6 I've had a negative month across both Invest and ISA even with the early 0.5% adopter bonus too. I expect the XIRR to decline in Invest as we are running down but this is not great. I would add that we are still in profit for this year but the ISA has been very up and down of late.
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Post by Ace on Feb 28, 2019 16:46:10 GMT
Here's a new one on me - this banner has appeared on my Statements page (Standard not ISA) - And what exactly would be the point? Are they going to tell me how to obtain better returns? Are they going to explain why my investment has NEVER achieved the "target return" which they pull out of thin air every week and mail it to me in an "update", just to wind me up? Zopa has gone from great to absolute rubbish over the 7+ years I've been there. My current 52-week IRR is 3.23% and getting worse every week. Over the last 8 weeks it annualises to just 0.4%. This from mainly Plus with some residual safeguarded Classic.
I would recycle into Core but they won't lend it out until I have accumulated a minimum £1000. If I want to do that on both standard and ISA that's £2000, patronisingly they tell me it's to ensure I'm properly diversified. I already have over 1900 loans and I do not need anyone to worry about my diversification.
Sorry to rant but that banner got my back up.I love a good rant every now and again so you Rant if you want to trium , its fine with me. I agree on the £1000 core limitation too - I usually look at my products as a whole most of the time but then I am in 20/80 Plus/Other(Core and SG) from quite a while back so it does not really affect either me or Mrs Aju these days. I wonder what mine says - I haven't checked - but I know this month my invest account is -£1 after default, bonus, and recoveries too. I am running it down and out to Mrs Aju's RS but that's the 1st time since starting in Zopa in 2005/6 I've had a negative month across both Invest and ISA even with the early 0.5% adopter bonus too. I expect the XIRR to decline in Invest as we are running down but this is not great. I would add that we are still in profit for this year but the ISA has been very up and down of late. I don't think that the XIRR will decline as a result of running down. It may well decline, but as a result of more loans defaulting, which would cause it to decline regardless of whether you were running down. The point of XIRR is that it takes account of the capital invested, so will only fall as a result of worsening percentage returns. I'm running my Zopa account down too. My one year experiment with Zopa came to an end a few days ago and I switched off relending and started withdrawing repayments. The XIRR was 5.53% at that time. It's down from a high point of 6.07% due to recent defaults. Having experimented with 25 platforms I decided that I needed to reduce the number. I've decided that Lendy, Zopa and RS will be the first to go. Lendy for obvious reasons (though I have made a decent return from my very small investment/gamble). Zopa due to falling returns which are already too low for the risk involved and I expect to fall further. RS because it's too much hassle to chase rates that can usually be bettered elsewhere and can't be bothered to keep up with their ever changing terms. I'm also withdrawing from the non-ISA side of my FC account as it's performed badly and I need to free up some capital for the upcoming ISA season.
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aju
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Post by aju on Feb 28, 2019 17:10:28 GMT
I love a good rant every now and again so you Rant if you want to trium , its fine with me. I agree on the £1000 core limitation too - I usually look at my products as a whole most of the time but then I am in 20/80 Plus/Other(Core and SG) from quite a while back so it does not really affect either me or Mrs Aju these days. I wonder what mine says - I haven't checked - but I know this month my invest account is -£1 after default, bonus, and recoveries too. I am running it down and out to Mrs Aju's RS but that's the 1st time since starting in Zopa in 2005/6 I've had a negative month across both Invest and ISA even with the early 0.5% adopter bonus too. I expect the XIRR to decline in Invest as we are running down but this is not great. I would add that we are still in profit for this year but the ISA has been very up and down of late. I don't think that the XIRR will decline as a result of running down. It may well decline, but as a result of more loans defaulting, which would cause it to decline regardless of whether you were running down. The point of XIRR is that it takes account of the capital invested, so will only fall as a result of worsening percentage returns. I'm running my Zopa account down too. My one year experiment with Zopa came to an end a few days ago and I switched off relending and started withdrawing repayments. The XIRR was 5.53% at that time. It's down from a high point of 6.07% due to recent defaults. Having experimented with 25 platforms I decided that I needed to reduce the number. I've decided that Lendy, Zopa and RS will be the first to go. Lendy for obvious reasons (though I have made a decent return from my very small investment/gamble). Zopa due to falling returns which are already too low for the risk involved and I expect to fall further. RS because it's too much hassle to chase rates that can usually be bettered elsewhere and can't be bothered to keep up with their ever changing terms. I'm also withdrawing from the non-ISA side of my FC account as it's performed badly and I need to free up some capital for the upcoming ISA season. Well it seems to go down for both myself and Mrs Aju, perhaps I am doing something wrong. One of the reasons I thought it was because of me turning relend off is I usually only measure it annually, well in fact monthly from the start of the year. The thing is surely it's got to go down as I and yourself are no longer lending in zopa. I thought the rates were only guaranteed, zopas term not mine, if we relend. The reality, and I know people will give me grief over thinking this way, is that the true rate as I like to call it as the loan money is being paid back (presumably withdrawn and not re-invested in Zopa) and therefore it must go down overall. Isn't that what an amortizing loan is the interest received at the end of the loan is less than that at the beginning.
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aju
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Post by aju on Feb 28, 2019 17:22:51 GMT
Here's a new one on me - this banner has appeared on my Statements page (Standard not ISA) - <<snipped>> I finally got around to checking my Invest statements page, especially as this is the first month my invest account produced a negative return for the month, and lo and behold It didn't even deem it necessary to appear - not sure if my investment is performing that well its down on last year but not that badly. It seems that Zopa is selectively picking some people to have different extra capabilities although I tend to agree with you about what they can do about it apart from make their loan decision AI work better and stop picking bad loans to lend to - especially those that never pay a penny which seem to be consistently increasing.
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Post by Ace on Mar 1, 2019 0:09:10 GMT
I don't think that the XIRR will decline as a result of running down. It may well decline, but as a result of more loans defaulting, which would cause it to decline regardless of whether you were running down. The point of XIRR is that it takes account of the capital invested, so will only fall as a result of worsening percentage returns. I'm running my Zopa account down too. My one year experiment with Zopa came to an end a few days ago and I switched off relending and started withdrawing repayments. The XIRR was 5.53% at that time. It's down from a high point of 6.07% due to recent defaults. Having experimented with 25 platforms I decided that I needed to reduce the number. I've decided that Lendy, Zopa and RS will be the first to go. Lendy for obvious reasons (though I have made a decent return from my very small investment/gamble). Zopa due to falling returns which are already too low for the risk involved and I expect to fall further. RS because it's too much hassle to chase rates that can usually be bettered elsewhere and can't be bothered to keep up with their ever changing terms. I'm also withdrawing from the non-ISA side of my FC account as it's performed badly and I need to free up some capital for the upcoming ISA season. Well it seems to go down for both myself and Mrs Aju, perhaps I am doing something wrong. One of the reasons I thought it was because of me turning relend off is I usually only measure it annually, well in fact monthly from the start of the year. The thing is surely it's got to go down as I and yourself are no longer lending in zopa. I thought the rates were only guaranteed, zopas term not mine, if we relend. The reality, and I know people will give me grief over thinking this way, is that the true rate as I like to call it as the loan money is being paid back (presumably withdrawn and not re-invested in Zopa) and therefore it must go down overall. Isn't that what an amortizing loan is the interest received at the end of the loan is less than that at the beginning. " The thing is surely it's got to go down as I and yourself are no longer lending in zopa." Sorry aju, but this isn't true. A correctly calculated XIRR takes account of the amount of capital invested and the time that it's invested for. It effectively tells you the APR equivalent that you would have been paid had you invested the same amounts on the same dates with the same returns in a fixed rate bank account. It won't be affected by running down your account, just as the APR on a bank account isn't affected by drawing down funds. If it's falling then that is due to investment performance (cash drag, defaults, lower rate loans etc), not due to drawing down. " I thought the rates were only guaranteed, zopas term not mine, if we relend." Zopa certainly don't guarantee rates. Their projected returns will probably assume that you have relending switched on, I.E. That you compound your interest by reinvesting any monthly payments (I haven't bothered too check, sorry). However, assuming you withdraw your repayments on the same day they are made and correctly record it in your XIRR calculation, then running down your account won't lower your XIRR. Ok, if your lazy like me and only withdraw repayments once week, it will cause a very minor reduction in the XIRR, but, given that you've been investing for years, this really will be negligible. " The reality, and I know people will give me grief over thinking this way, is that the true rate as I like to call it as the loan money is being paid back (presumably withdrawn and not re-invested in Zopa) and therefore it must go down overall. Isn't that what an amortizing loan is the interest received at the end of the loan is less than that at the beginning." Sorry, but it's a no again. A correctly calculated XIRR will take account of the fact that loans are amortizing. Yes, the amount of interest you receive on an amortizing loan reduces over time, but the rate doesn't change. Just as the rate that you receive on a savings account won't change as you reduce the balance. The amount of interest earned reduces, but the rate does not. I hope this helps. Sorry to all for using savings accounts to illustrate the points. Just to be clear, I am in no way equating P2P with FSCS protected savings accounts.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 1, 2019 1:39:33 GMT
Okay so we've just flipped over to the new month and it seems to have come back up to a reasonable rate so I was obviously measuring it for the current month incorrectly. I'm not actually measuring it monthly just the current XIRR so far since apr 1st, I usually keep track of data relative to the tax year, or as close as each months statement data will allow the tax year running from 6th to 5th.
I have my XIRR's section triggering each month line to show XIRR based on the activate field date (i.e current month). I guess the fact that at the moment I am assuming all withdrawn money is done on the start of the month but it increases as I log it each week when I am looking on any day its affecting the Xirr in some way. I am using NPV to double check but perhaps its a quirk of my data at the intervals.
I was assuming the drawdown will reduce the interest received as the invested amount reduces and this would show in the XIRR but the switch from Feb to Mar has just pulled the XIRR back up as there is no defunding as yet well in fact no data for March. Invest is showing as a healthy 5.08% for the last 11 months but the whole year estimate is currently projecting 4.73% but there is obviously no data for Mar as yet. It's clear that the funding data is causing this rather weird effect and as I say is probably due to me not dating each daily reduction in funding.
For interest all our Invest XIRR's with drawdown of funds have corrected today so I guess it's a slight anomaly in XIRR although NPV checks are not showing an obvious error in XIRR.
I think we've probably done this to death now but at least I now understand my XIRR anomaly a bit better.
I see you mentioned comparing savings accounts. I still think P2P amortizing loans are more akin to regular savers than say Marcus lend a lump sum and get a compounding interest rate for it. So 5% in a NW regsaver is different rate of return than say 5% in NW current account. One get just over half the return on the former in a given year than the current account version. So I keep a spreadsheet that allows me to clearly see the real return on a given account and thus can choose more accurately across types of rates. (I'm sure that statement will throw up more questions than putting them to bed, all I can say is it works for me to understand where my returns are best in hard cash terms not in the way that each ave rate is defined and then worked out.) All these AER/APR etc are okay but I like to be sure of my returns on a given investment where I can also bearing in mind what defaults might bring in more risky products etc.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 1, 2019 9:09:37 GMT
I haven't called Zopa CS this year. The last time I called time was 2018, about the outrageous rate adjustment fee. At the end, it was worth it. I received the 9.25% fee back for one particular loan. Every little helps. p2pindependentforum.com/post/270366/thread
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 1, 2019 9:53:23 GMT
I haven't called Zopa CS this year. The last time I called time was 2018, about the outrageous rate adjustment fee. At the end, it was worth it. I received the 9.25% fee back for one particular loan. Every little helps. p2pindependentforum.com/post/270366/threadI haven't either but I certainly did have a fruitful experience in calling them last year, monetarily wise that is, they were very receptive to my complaints but to be fair they were kinda making some big gaffs, selling off SG incorrectly and then making a "pigs ear" of the fixes to correct it was one big issue fo us. My experience with Zopa was always a positive one they listened and wanted to make good at the service front end but were sometime heavily constrained by the dev teams putting the spanner in the works of much stuff that needed either fixing or reworking. Zopa was having to pay out a lot of times on silly mistakes so much so it became almost 2nd nature to them to make a payment, well it seemed that way to a serial complainer like me. To their credit at no time were their payments made with a gagging clause though - not sure if that was a mistake or not. One issue I had was how many people may never have actually realised the problems they were being subjected too and I guess Zopa never came publicly clean to reduce the payouts they had to make so it probably cut in in real terms for them. I even got to speak to some of their top people who again listened and agreed in a lot of cases but nothing much really changed as far as I can tell so it was probably a case of lets placate him and hopefully he'll accept or at worst move on. Sadly we have moved on in terms of the Invest account we are slowly moving over to RS as the rates seem better and there is a PF in place, mind you it remains to be seen for us how useful that one may be. We still have a lot SG covered loans in Zopa and the performance is still standing up for us so far, although Mrs AJu's ISA does look a little less on XIRR front last check was down to 3.28%. We do though consider it in the whole and that's still good for our needs..
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Post by Ace on Mar 1, 2019 19:42:38 GMT
... I see you mentioned comparing savings accounts. I still think P2P amortizing loans are more akin to regular savers than say Marcus lend a lump sum and get a compounding interest rate for it. So 5% in a NW regsaver is different rate of return than say 5% in NW current account. One get just over half the return on the former in a given year than the current account version. So I keep a spreadsheet that allows me to clearly see the real return on a given account and thus can choose more accurately across types of rates. (I'm sure that statement will throw up more questions than putting them to bed, all I can say is it works for me to understand where my returns are best in hard cash terms not in the way that each ave rate is defined and then worked out.) All these AER/APR etc are okay but I like to be sure of my returns on a given investment where I can also bearing in mind what defaults might bring in more risky products etc. It's not true to say that these two examples have different rates of return. They both pay 5% APR. It's a standardised measure that allows us to compare savings products. Yes the regular saver returns half the profit, but that's because it has, on average, half the capital employed. It's not because it's paying half the rate. If you had the whole capital available to invest at the start of the loan then much of that capital can be employed elsewhere until it's needed, and thus earning further interest that is not taken account of in your "real rate of 2.5%". XIRR gives us an equivalent measure for lending that APR does for saving. It allows us to see which of our investments is performing the best in terms of returns. As you say it's certainly not the only, or even the most important factor, to consider when deciding where to invest. The most important factor to consider is the probability of getting your capital returned, which is much more difficult to measure.
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