mickj
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Post by mickj on Mar 9, 2019 13:17:05 GMT
No email for me but had the thought I would have make a spreadsheet with my loans, amounts/dates/interest/totals, but was very happy to find I had made one a year ago with some updates in October 2018, completely forgot. Lets hope some money has made it's way back into the pot.
Nice to see our three committee members are on it, many thanks again for time and trouble.
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nick
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Post by nick on Mar 9, 2019 13:36:05 GMT
I received an email late Friday afternoon advising me off a significantly reduced debt figure. I immediately called BDO to discuss the revised figures, understand their process, and the best way I could respond to substantiate my claim value and help them reconcile the difference against the current info they had derived from the database. I had originally reconciled the initial original proof of debt figure to within 33p and fortunately kept detailed account statements and email transaction confirmations which could substantiate my claim to a high degree of certainty. It was immediately clear that about half the discrepancy was due to cash I had on the platform. BDO stated on the call that as far as the company records showed, I only had 33p in my account versus mid 4 figures per my records - at least I now know why the original debt figure given to me was different to my records by 33p because they didn't bothering including this in the initial proof of debt figure. The key points from my conversation with BDO were: - About 80-85% of all account balances tie back to the original debt figures
- Letters have only been emailed to about 30 investors where the discrepancy is greatest (in absolute £ terms)
- Nearly all the accounts that vary against the original balances given are going against the investor, ie the balances are being revised down.
- They are hoping that investors with discrepancies will respond with detailed support so that they can identify specific/systematic issues with the data they have
- Nothing is going to happen quickly, investors with discrepancies will have plenty of time to respond and engage - this is not going to be a quick process
- Fundamentally the issue they have is that the original balances were just total summary exposures contained in a spreadsheet with no supporting data or allocation across loans. The revised balances is based on some form of underlying data, and more importantly, allows allocation of exposure against specific borrowers and the platform itself (in respect of non-invested cash).
The spreadsheet provided by BDO along side the letter provides a basic breakdown of info, specifically line items of individual amounts invested in each loan and an offsetting "amount_selling" figure which they believe relate to sold loans, with entries for each loan part acquired. However, I believe the "amount selling" column also captures loans that were on sale but had not been sold as at 28 Feb and suspect this will account for the bulk of the remaining variance. In my discussion with BDO I highlighted that the net funds I had invested on the platform (which they should be able to verify by bank records) now exceeded the total exposure (cash and loans) they were now suggesting, and that this was even before factoring in interest and cash back that I had earn't on the platform. When discussing this point, it became clear to me the dilemma BDO have - that the original analysis is worthless to them as they are looking to distribute realisations on a loan by loan basis and so are left relying on the numbers they have pulled from the database which most cases reconcile with the original balances and can allocate exposure to each borrower, but does not tally back to all originally reported exposures for all accounts. I hope that our individual feedback/analysis of discrepancies in reported exposures will collectively help them to reconcile all accounts to the original exposure figures that most investors seem to be in agreement with. I agreed on the call that I would send BDO my detailed statement and my analysis of where the discrepancies in values are coming from so that they can investigate further and hopefully correct their analysis. I suggest everyone else affected does the same, even absent all supporting data, as I suspect that the problem/issues will be common (eg not including loans on sale but weren't sold etc) and should go a long way to helping them fully reconcile the data. The difference in reported cash balance is a major concern as even a rudimentary analysis would show something is far from right. However, I suspect the losses on cash held on the platform will likely suffer the greatest write-off (given the apparent large day one discrepancy in funds held in the client account and after administration fees) so dispute over cash balances held on the platform may end up being a depressingly mute point...... |
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mosaic
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Post by mosaic on Mar 9, 2019 13:57:55 GMT
I think the best option would be if BDO were to employ nick to reconcile the data! |
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star dust
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Post by star dust on Mar 9, 2019 14:43:15 GMT
Thanks for your post nick it was incredibly helpful and will hopefully put some investors minds at rest, at least concerning their own balances. I have taken the liberty of quoting your post into the significant information thread - p2pindependentforum.com/post/317403/thread I trust I got the picture straight. |
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Post by sebulon on Mar 9, 2019 14:44:05 GMT
I received an email late Friday afternoon advising me off a significantly reduced debt figure. I immediately called BDO to discuss the revised figures, understand their process, and the best way I could respond to substantiate my claim value and help them reconcile the difference against the current info they had derived from the database. I had originally reconciled the initial original proof of debt figure to within 33p and fortunately kept detailed account statements and email transaction confirmations which could substantiate my claim to a high degree of certainty. It was immediately clear that about half the discrepancy was due to cash I had on the platform. BDO stated on the call that as far as the company records showed, I only had 33p in my account versus mid 4 figures per my records - at least I now know why the original debt figure given to me was different to my records by 33p because they didn't bothering including this in the initial proof of debt figure. The key points from my conversation with BDO were: - About 80-85% of all account balances tie back to the original debt figures
- Letters have only been emailed to about 30 investors where the discrepancy is greatest (in absolute £ terms)
- Nearly all the accounts that vary against the original balances given are going against the investor, ie the balances are being revised down.
- They are hoping that investors with discrepancies will respond with detailed support so that they can identify specific/systematic issues with the data they have
- Nothing is going to happen quickly, investors with discrepancies will have plenty of time to respond and engage - this is not going to be a quick process
- Fundamentally the issue they have is that the original balances were just total summary exposures contained in a spreadsheet with no supporting data or allocation across loans. The revised balances is based on some form of underlying data, and more importantly, allows allocation of exposure against specific borrowers and the platform itself (in respect of non-invested cash).
The spreadsheet provided by BDO along side the letter provides a basic breakdown of info, specifically line items of individual amounts invested in each loan and an offsetting "amount_selling" figure which they believe relate to sold loans, with entries for each loan part acquired. However, I believe the "amount selling" column also captures loans that were on sale but had not been sold as at 28 Feb and suspect this will account for the bulk of the remaining variance. In my discussion with BDO I highlighted that the net funds I had invested on the platform (which they should be able to verify by bank records) now exceeded the total exposure (cash and loans) they were now suggesting, and that this was even before factoring in interest and cash back that I had earn't on the platform. When discussing this point, it became clear to me the dilemma BDO have - that the original analysis is worthless to them as they are looking to distribute realisations on a loan by loan basis and so are left relying on the numbers they have pulled from the database which most cases reconcile with the original balances and can allocate exposure to each borrower, but does not tally back to all originally reported exposures for all accounts. I hope that our individual feedback/analysis of discrepancies in reported exposures will collectively help them to reconcile all accounts to the original exposure figures that most investors seem to be in agreement with. I agreed on the call that I would send BDO my detailed statement and my analysis of where the discrepancies in values are coming from so that they can investigate further and hopefully correct their analysis. I suggest everyone else affected does the same, even absent all supporting data, as I suspect that the problem/issues will be common (eg not including loans on sale but weren't sold etc) and should go a long way to helping them fully reconcile the data. The difference in reported cash balance is a major concern as even a rudimentary analysis would show something is far from right. However, I suspect the losses on cash held on the platform will likely suffer the greatest write-off (given the apparent large day one discrepancy in funds held in the client account and after administration fees) so dispute over cash balances held on the platform may end up being a depressingly mute point...... Many thanks to you Nick for this thorough study! My situation is very similar to yours. I also sent my bank account transactions to them, but unfortunately I can't provide them with as accurate information as you can.
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keystone
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Post by keystone on Mar 9, 2019 14:50:50 GMT
Well, this is really depressing. I suspected my initial value given last year when BDO sent the emails was wrong, but I couldn't verify it as I only had emails which I have no idea if they are complete or not. I also had substantial cash balance as I was selling out of collateral but hadn't withdrawn the sale proceeds. I accepted the BDO figure as most people on here were saying they were accurate to a penny with their own calculations. Now with the latest discrepancy and being one of those who had cash balances but no way of verifying my holding how am I supposed to provide evidence to BDO? Unless everyone's figures tally up how can any distribution be made when some people can validate their own figures but others can't? How would BDO know they aren't overpaying some and underpaying others. With the FCA trying to wash their hands of the London and Capital Finance debacle I don't see any likely recovery of any shortfall.  |
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nick
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Post by nick on Mar 9, 2019 15:30:41 GMT
Well, this is really depressing. I suspected my initial value given last year when BDO sent the emails was wrong, but I couldn't verify it as I only had emails which I have no idea if they are complete or not. I also had substantial cash balance as I was selling out of collateral but hadn't withdrawn the sale proceeds. I accepted the BDO figure as most people on here were saying they were accurate to a penny with their own calculations. Now with the latest discrepancy and being one of those who had cash balances but no way of verifying my holding how am I supposed to provide evidence to BDO? Unless everyone's figures tally up how can any distribution be made when some people can validate their own figures but others can't? How would BDO know they aren't overpaying some and underpaying others. With the FCA trying to wash their hands of the London and Capital Finance debacle I don't see any likely recovery of any shortfall. I wouldn't despair yet. From your bank statements, you can at can substantiate the minimum amount you had on the platform, just not whether these were loans on money held on the platform. Of course this wouldn't account for interest or cashback that you have earnt, but gives a minimum figure that has to be accounted for one way or another. Then it really just becomes an issue of how this exposure is allocated across loans or money held on the platform. The fact that the majority of account reconcile with the original debt figures is also comforting as it indicates that the data they have been able to extract is likely reliable but may just be incomplete in some aspects or mis-interpreted (eg data for loans that were listed for sale has been taken as actual sales when some of this data may related to unsold loans). The fact that several affected members who have started investing the variances are flagging common issues also indicates there appears to be some issue over interpretation of data rather than issues over the underlying integrity of the raw numbers. There may be still a long way to go, but ultimately I think they will get to fairly accurate positions on all accounts (and this is coming from someone who is normally a pessimist). They will certainly need to get to a fairly high degree of confidence before paying out.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Mar 9, 2019 16:57:26 GMT
Strangely oblique approach to gather the info and to my mind ,not at all professional, even if the site records were in disarray . Who are these people ? They don't seem up to the job they have grabbed at an extortionate fee. I'd like to see their track record and why they were chosen men.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 9, 2019 18:15:08 GMT
Just having a scary thought. Initially BDO only had account totals, that seemed to agree pretty well with what lenders thought, now they have obtained account details, which seem to show less funds for at least some lenders. But from the initial Col accounts totals it did appear funds were 'missing', is this highlighting where the shortfalls are? It seems Nick's post above unfortunately rather supports my scary thoughts.
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sirius
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Post by sirius on Mar 10, 2019 9:32:07 GMT
My wife received an email Friday, but I did not. £4k discrepancy from previous BDO total investment which was correct, plus a further £500 held on account which they did not acknowledge in the first email either and were informed accordingly.
I 'think' I was selling loans at the time, which I hope accounts for the discrepancy.
Like others I will reconcile bank details and emails.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 10, 2019 11:32:27 GMT
I am glad something is happening and seems to be on the right lines.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Mar 10, 2019 14:02:40 GMT
I’ve already made contact with BDO regarding this and will be addressing it in the meeting on Tuesday. On the surface (although not 100%) it appears to only affect investors who held cash balances or loans for sale on the secondary market at the time the platform collapsed. Anyone who was fully invested (nothing for sale and didn’t have a cash balance) is unlikely to be contacted as their investments have likely been reconciled (although if that’s not the case and you were fully invested and did receive a letter then please let me know in this thread). Have you any idea what timescale or how they are sending these emails out? I note only one person here seems to have received an email yesterday (Friday). Are any more likely to be sent before Monday? I presume I can expect to get one as I had loan parts up for sale and funds in two small property loans that were not drawn down at point of collapse. Nope no idea. The first I heard about this was via a forum post but Nick’s post seems to mostly clear this up.
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Post by charliebrown on Mar 10, 2019 15:29:10 GMT
Of course BDO aren’t going to send letters with the correct totals on. By sending incorrect totals they will generate a lot of letters/calls/emails from aggrieved investors, which they will no doubt charge for handling. They’ll probably delay for another year and table a massive bill for having a second attempt at getting the totals correct. At 500 quid per hour, I’d say unless 10s of thousands of pounds have been wiped off our totals we’d be better just not saying anything, it would be cheaper to keep our mouths shut. Can we start a poll where we can vote for our confidence in BDO. I’m afraid my vote is a vote of no confidence. I can’t believe that 1 year on we are no further forward with any recovery. BDO has no incentive at all to recover anything, ever.
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Post by elephantrosie on Mar 10, 2019 19:49:27 GMT
how do we know that BDOs charges is 500 quids per hour?
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Post by mrclondon on Mar 10, 2019 19:56:47 GMT
how do we know that BDOs charges is 500 quids per hour? Thats what they charge for the time of the most senior partner, on the rare occaisons he's involved. The blended rate across all staff is c. £300 / hour
This is my analysis of the administrators progress report last November: BDO's hours/costs are detailed on pages 13 to 16 of the pdf, and the totals on each page need to be summated. Total hours = 1138 over a 6 month period (av of 43.8 hours per week over 26 week period, so essentially 1 FTE) Total fees = £349,314 over a 6 month period (av. £307 / hr blended rate)
My observationsa) My recollection is that a blended rate of £300 ish is what we had been led to expect. b) The effort that has been booked by BDO is roughly 1 person full time equivalent - has this been too low ? c) Given what has been achieved thus far, the fee estimate in the June 2018 proposal document (and repeated on pg 17 of this report) of £533k was hopelessly inadequate (c. 1 FTE for 44 weeks). d) I suspect BDO (still) had no idea what they were taking on back in June, and I am disappointed that no attempt has been made to publish a revised estimate of the total effort BDO will incur now they have a better understanding. This will hopefully be a focus of the CC.
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