cwah
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Post by cwah on Jul 4, 2021 21:51:47 GMT
thank you
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sam i am
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Post by sam i am on Jul 5, 2021 15:19:49 GMT
In many cases the 3% fees are relatively small compared with some other charges and do have some justification based on recovery work done (whether 3% is the right level is a matter for debate).
In my opinion what is far more contentious are the penalties that Lendy is charging borrowers for late repayment which in many cases have been exceptionally high. These charges are ranked by Lendy ahead of repayment of lenders' capital. And as far as I'm aware these charges have not been disclosed to lenders even though they very significantly reduce lender security. Since there is a direct and very significant impact on lender returns this information should have been disclosed as a material fact as it significantly influences the investment decision. In my view this non-disclosure should meet the legal definition of "unfair" in the relevant contracts law. It is my contention that the waterfall (i.e. order of making payments) must be changed so that any terms that were not disclosed to investors which impact investment returns must rank after contractual payments to lenders.
I am not a lawyer and the above is just my opinion.
It is my understanding that the amounts I am referring to above have been ring-fenced by the administrators pending the outcome of the current court case.
If anyone can provide any further commentary on this point I would be grateful.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 5, 2021 16:22:44 GMT
In many cases the 3% fees are relatively small compared with some other charges and do have some justification based on recovery work done (whether 3% is the right level is a matter for debate).
In my opinion what is far more contentious are the penalties that Lendy is charging borrowers for late repayment which in many cases have been exceptionally high. These charges are ranked by Lendy ahead of repayment of lenders' capital. And as far as I'm aware these charges have not been disclosed to lenders even though they very significantly reduce lender security. Since there is a direct and very significant impact on lender returns this information should have been disclosed as a material fact as it significantly influences the investment decision. In my view this non-disclosure should meet the legal definition of "unfair" in the relevant contracts law. It is my contention that the waterfall (i.e. order of making payments) must be changed so that any terms that were not disclosed to investors which impact investment returns must rank after contractual payments to lenders.
I am not a lawyer and the above is just my opinion.
It is my understanding that the amounts I am referring to above have been ring-fenced by the administrators pending the outcome of the current court case.
If anyone can provide any further commentary on this point I would be grateful.
See the coverage of last week's court case by the whiskered one which basically was addressing that very point.
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sam i am
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Post by sam i am on Jul 5, 2021 18:07:53 GMT
Thanks ilmoro , I have seen the exceptionally good reporting from Mousey , but I must admit that the detail and length of court reporting sometimes goes beyond me as I'm not familiar with some of the terms and language.
One thing I note is that the points I mentioned appeared to be mostly covered by: Issue 6 - Were any of the relevant clauses in the Model 2 Terms not properly incorporated into the contract between Lendy and Model 2 Investors (on the basis that they were onerous or unusual or otherwise?) and Issue 7 - Do any of the relevant clauses in the Model 2 Terms constitute ‘unfair terms’ under Part 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015?
However these issues did not appear to be discussed in court with the discussion jumping from Issue 5 directly to 8. Is there any relevance to them not being discussed orally?
In the written response it seems that the administrators seek to dismiss any notion of "unfairness" on the basis that it doesn't apply due the nature of the argument and the fact that none of the investor terms can be identified as unfair. But I would contend that the "unfairness" stems from the omission of terms, not their inclusion.
The matter is also raised in Issue 5 (Lisa's) paragraph 19:
19. In correspondence in March 2018, the FCA made the obvious point that if lenders did not know what charges were payable to Lendy by borrowers in a default situation, they were unable to judge the impact of those charges on their (i.e. the lenders’) ability to recover their capital [E2/109/475]). As discussed in more detail in paragraph 51 below, Lendy batted that concern away at the time with bland assurances that lenders would always rank ahead of Lendy’s own claims (claiming this to be “a key foundation stone of the business” [E2/109/476]), but subsequently reneged on those assurances, without telling either the FCA, or lenders. How much damage to Model 2 lenders flows from that depends to a large extent on whether the Administrators are right in submitting that Lendy is entitled to keep DI for its own account.
Which I guess is the part referred to above about the FCA being aware of the situation.
The administrators appear to seek to dismiss assurances given by Lendy to the FCA as being irrelevant.
It also gets raised again in Issue 10 where the administrators seem to be relying on what I believe is a rather flimsy argument (I would say that, wouldn't I?) based on a reference to "proportionate share" even though the quoted term 12.7 doesn't make any other reference to the order of payments and certainly doesn't clarify the charges which Lendy would make in the case of default.
I'm sure there are many other references that I haven't spotted in the coverage.
Overall I get the impression that the administrators' arguments are mostly disputing the legal basis on which Lisa's points are made (i.e. trying to dismiss them) rather than challenging the substance of the arguments. Just my opinion based on no legal expertise.
In any case there's nothing we can do other than wait for the judgement and see what happens from there.
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Mousey
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Post by Mousey on Jul 5, 2021 18:50:49 GMT
I'm still populating those daily logs. I was absent on Wednesday and only put what was I knew would be covered in the morning. Issues 6, 7 and 9 were covered after lunch.
I made an application on Thursday for disclosure of the three Damian Webb Witness Statements (#2,3&5) which stood as his evidence in chief and for disclosure of the Daily Transcripts for the purpose of publication.
The court very kindly dealt with my application this morning and I was sent a sealed court order directing that I should be provided with the relevant documents (that had not already been provided by consent).
So I need to read through all 500+ pages and once any redactions of personal info is complete I'll publish them. Specifically on issue 6 the transcript reads as follows:
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wuzimu
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Post by wuzimu on Jul 5, 2021 21:48:35 GMT
Yes, the administrators argument for the waterfall is basically the standard M2 terms stated the loan contracts contained the operative terms. It was accepted that M2 lenders weren't shown the loan contracts, but the admins say M2 lenders should have asked to see the loan contracts and that Lendy would have shown the loan contracts if asked. So for that reason the changes to the lender terms in mar 2018 (the amended terms) are not fundamental to the admins case. Which is why item 6 was skipped....
ummm okay but Personally I don't think it's reasonable that retail consumers should have to ask for and interpret detailed legal loan contracts....what happened to 'fair, clear and not misleading' w/ref Lendy fees? In any event I don't think Lendy wanted any lenders to see the loan contracts ,, ever,, untill their hand was forced in 2018. Well I asked for loan contracts in 2017 and Lendy simply ignored my requests. AFAIAA the first time a loan contract was shared by Lendy it was the for London loan when they had to inform lenders why they were allegedly jointly liable for whatever the borrower was claiming. But by then all lenders were locked in for the ride to Oblivion on all loans. Fingers crossed judge sees things as they were
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Post by paul123 on Aug 12, 2021 18:02:01 GMT
From Lisa on FB: ***Great news. We won!***
Sorry this is so long but it's great news. I'd like to thank Mike, Norm and our counsel for all they've done.
Here's the technical bit. The Judgment in the Application to Court for Directions brought by the Administrators has just been published. While there remain certain “deferred issues” (as to which see below), the outcome could hardly have been better for Model 2 Investors / Transferees (“M2 Lenders”). A full list of the matters determined by the Court is provided below, but in summary: • The Court has found that no part of the Deferred Interest belongs to Lendy: it is all the property of M2 Lenders.
• The “waterfall” (whereby anything payable to Lendy from loan proceeds should take priority to amounts payable to M2 Lenders) is unenforceable (as it was not brought to the attention of M2 Lenders and in any event amounted to a breach of duty by Lendy.
• Although unnecessary (given the prior conclusions), the Court also found that Lendy’s conduct was such that its discretion to apply the waterfall must be exercised by prioritising M2 Lenders. This means:
(i) that there will need to be an analysis of the cash at bank at the date of the Administrators’ appointment (approximately £900,000) to discover what part of that can be “traced” to recovered Default Interest.
(ii) The Administrators will need to review all recoveries to date and apply the Default Interest recovered to the relevant loan part holders. • M1 Investors’ claims in the administration should be calculated by reference to actual recoveries (or estimated recoveries if a dividend is to be distributed earlier than all recovery avenues are exhausted) in each relevant loan. There remain the three deferred Issues, namely
(a) whether M2 Lenders are unsecured creditors (and if so, how to quantify their claims),
(b) who are the proper beneficiaries of the “third party claims” (ie, against professional, possibly negligent valuers) and
(c) what amounts should the Administrators should be allowed to deduct money from M2 loan recoveries to cover the costs incurred in administering, recovering and distributing the loans, and if so on what basis.
On this last point, it is inevitable that the Administrators will be entitled to be paid something for these tasks. This is not covered by the regime for Administrators’ fees and expenses payable from the Company’s own (or “free”) assets which is set out in the Insolvency Act and Rules. The legal questions go to whether the free assets of the Company should be used before any deductions are made to the M2 Lenders’ recoveries, how the amount should be calculated and (if being “paid” for by M2 Lenders), how these payments should be applied between syndicates. These matters wills now be considered further by the respective legal teams in the light of the Judgment, and either resolved by agreement or referred back to the Court for determination.
Determined Issues: Model 1 1. The Model 1 Investors (in their capacity as such) do not have any claims other than unsecured provable claims against Lendy. 2. The proceeds of security in respect of the Model 1 Loans form part of Lendy’s general estate. 3. Lendy is liable to each Model 1 Investor only to the extent that Lendy is repaid by a borrower under, or makes recoveries in respect of, the relevant Model 1 Loan which that Model 1 Investor has funded. Accordingly, the provable contractual claim of a Model 1 Investor is limited to, or capped by, the amounts repaid to or recovered by Lendy in respect of the relevant Model 1 Loan which that Model 1 Investor has funded. 4. The Model 1 Investors’ contractual claims are to be valued in an amount equal to the gross proceeds received by Lendy on the relevant Model 1 Loan, without any deduction for the costs of realisation. Model 2 1. Lendy did not breach any of its fiduciary duties by charging fees or standard/non-default interest for its own account in connection with the Model 2 Loans. 2. The M2 Lenders do not have a legal or equitable proprietary interest in any standard/non-default interest or fees payable by a Model 2 Borrower to Lendy under a Model 2 Loan. 3. The M2 Lenders have an equitable proprietary interest in any default interest Lendy received in respect of the Model 2 Loan in which they participated, or any traceable proceeds of that default interest. 4. In the alternative to an equitable proprietary claim, the relevant M2 Lenders are entitled to an account of profits from Lendy; but any such account, being a personal remedy, will rank as an unsecured provable claim in Lendy’s administration. 5. The full amount of Default interest payable by Model 2 Borrower is required to be paid to the relevant M2 Lenders. 6. To the extent that, before the Administration Date, Lendy received default interest under a Model 2 Loan and used such default interest for its own purposes and did not account to the relevant M2 Lenders for those sums, Lendy acted in breach of its fiduciary duties to the relevant M2 Lenders.
7. Lendy is not entitled to an equitable allowance in respect of any acts that it undertook in connection with the Model 2 Loans before the Administration Date.
8. The proceeds of any security realised in respect of a particular Model 2 Loan must be applied towards discharging the Secured Liabilities owing to the relevant M2 Lenders who participated in that Model 2 Loan in priority to the Secured Liabilities owing to Lendy.
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Post by paul123 on Aug 12, 2021 18:21:39 GMT
From Lisa on FB: What does this mean? There is already £10-12m held. I'd say about 50% again what we've already received. The change means we'll recover about £15-20m more than had we lost.
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rocky1
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Post by rocky1 on Aug 12, 2021 18:50:04 GMT
going back over all these loans will probably add many,many hours to administration costs.this has all been caused by LBs ducking and diving and LB/LENDY should pay these costs from the lendy fees/ lendy contract entitlement etc that has been seeing the best part of any returns of our funds.well done to lisa and the gang but can we now go for the jugular on these scamming bar*tards.
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k6
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Post by k6 on Aug 12, 2021 18:56:50 GMT
Finally some positive news. Amazing job those involved in fighting for our money. Cant even describe and stress enough how grateful I am for your time putted into this case. Hats Off .
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Post by rooster on Aug 12, 2021 19:35:18 GMT
Yep, a tremendous effort and result. Thanks so much for fighting the cause, I am truly grateful. It appears that there may be justice in this world after all!
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dave4
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Post by dave4 on Aug 12, 2021 19:50:14 GMT
Excellent effort, well done all involved.
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Post by Ace on Aug 12, 2021 20:11:18 GMT
Yes, a magnificent achievement. However, it really shouldn't have been incumbent on us lenders to fund a court case to achieve justice.
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qlassa
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Post by qlassa on Aug 12, 2021 22:30:29 GMT
Hats Off. Great achievement indeed!
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Post by gramsky on Aug 13, 2021 8:25:05 GMT
So how long before we start getting our money?
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