oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 21, 2014 18:07:41 GMT
All the buying/selling transactions from today via new site have now disappeared from my statement. Does that mean I'm getting my money/loan parts back & getting rid of the ones I never wanted/mandated to buy? I doubt it as my balance is the same after the initial AC c**k up! I've more or less always backed AC where there have been small errors but this is peoples' money we're dealing with & the new system should have been watertight before going live! Mine, as shown in the screen shot in my last post, are still there.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Oct 21, 2014 18:28:42 GMT
I spotted this earlier but chris did not reply to my question. I see this as a pretty fundamental flaw with the system and I don't really understand why the system was based on cash values (which are time-dependent quantities) rather than unchanging units. As the loan moves toward expiry, if you do not update your target amount each month, you will keep buying an amount equal to the prior month amortization. We need an option to target a notional position (i.e a number of units of a loan) rather than a market value. Otherwise a batchoy implies you will end up taking more and more credit risk (against the principal) as the loan moves to expiry. The whole point of an amortizing loan is that the principal credit risk reduces! Or putting it another way the MAI effectively turns all loans into Bullet Loans rather than Amortising Loans regardless of how the original loan was structured, and I have differing investment strategies of Bullet and Amortising loans. I too have a load of "phantom mandates" that I certainly did not authorize or request. A "target" has been set for every loan I had, but had no AI target for (under old system), a target equivalent to my holding, which will now "fix" those loans at that holding. Not at all what I wanted or expected. chris: What about a rule that says "If target == holding, then STOP THE MAI !" -- that way, if someone adjusts up (or down) the MAI will try and hunt to the target. Then, if a loan repays a bit of capital, the MAI will keep it's neb out, with a target of X, but a hollding of Y, and the situation will stay like that until the target is adjusted and MAI turned back on. Of course, this supposes that the MAI can be switched on and off, which it now can't (?)
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j
Member of DD Central
Penguins are very misunderstood!
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Post by j on Oct 21, 2014 18:35:08 GMT
Or putting it another way the MAI effectively turns all loans into Bullet Loans rather than Amortising Loans regardless of how the original loan was structured, and I have differing investment strategies of Bullet and Amortising loans. I too have a load of "phantom mandates" that I certainly did not authorize or request. A "target" has been set for every loan I had, but had no AI target for (under old system), a target equivalent to my holding, which will now "fix" those loans at that holding. Not at all what I wanted or expected. chris: What about a rule that says "If target == holding, then STOP THE MAI !" -- that way, if someone adjusts up (or down) the MAI will try and hunt to the target. Then, if a loan repays a bit of capital, the MAI will keep it's neb out, with a target of X, but a hollding of Y, and the situation will stay like that until the target is adjusted and MAI turned back on. Of course, this supposes that the MAI can be switched on and off, which it now can't (?) Having just trawled through every loan, I found one which had a target of £5000! I was never interested in that loan & never went anywhere near it from day 1. Where did that come from? Suffice to say I used the 'opt-out' option on that & a few others. Wonder if it will make a difference & if I'll end up with some units still once some come on AM?
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Post by johnny on Oct 21, 2014 18:40:34 GMT
I have stopped looking as everytime I log back into my account my accrued interest amount decreases, if it continues I may need a loan.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:51:39 GMT
Or putting it another way the MAI effectively turns all loans into Bullet Loans rather than Amortising Loans regardless of how the original loan was structured, and I have differing investment strategies of Bullet and Amortising loans. I too have a load of "phantom mandates" that I certainly did not authorize or request. A "target" has been set for every loan I had, but had no AI target for (under old system), a target equivalent to my holding, which will now "fix" those loans at that holding. Not at all what I wanted or expected. chris: What about a rule that says "If target == holding, then STOP THE MAI !" -- that way, if someone adjusts up (or down) the MAI will try and hunt to the target. Then, if a loan repays a bit of capital, the MAI will keep it's neb out, with a target of X, but a hollding of Y, and the situation will stay like that until the target is adjusted and MAI turned back on. Of course, this supposes that the MAI can be switched on and off, which it now can't (?) Manual investment is always on, but if your holding and target are equal then it will ignore you. There's still a debate to be had around auto diversification and whether that too should operate on manual investments. At the moment you have to have a target, it's your current holdings. When the site was set live if you had an active auto invest target then that target was used otherwise it was set to your current holdings. There has been an oversight where if you had a different target set in AI and had disabled either buying or selling then that has been incorrectly ignored as it wasn't mapped to the new system which doesn't have those concepts. What we should have done is in those instances instead set the target to be your current loan holding. This was a last minute change as our original intention was to ignore the old AI settings completely but there were complaints on this forum that several lenders had spent a lot of time reviewing loans and setting targets so we imported the settings - apologies that this has caused further issue. I'm not sure how best to correct for that now - I suspect that if I start making blanket changes to the settings then it's going to overwrite changes that people have made since then which will cause as much anger as if I leave it as is. You can quickly see all your holdings and targets via the loan book screen (https://www.assetzcapital.co.uk/investments/loan-book) so I'm tempted to leave it as is and ask lenders to set their targets to whatever level of investment they actually want. That the target doesn't track principal repayments - this is identical to the old system. Indeed there was a debate on this forum about whether or not it should. I have a solution in mind so that it will count down with each repayment as they're made, but suspect that this will still cause confusion. For example if you set your target to £500 but nothing is immediately available and then a loan repayment occurs, should your target adjust? Should it only track your current holdings and not scale the rest, should it scale everything, etc. I don't remember there ever being a consensus on how it should work last time it was discussed, so for now it is set to copy the old behaviour but I am happy to discuss this further and come up with a solution everyone is happy with. Where this has caused confusion is that the system can now buy and sell in much smaller units. Loan units are no longer held in £100 chunks, each lender will usually end up with one loan unit in each loan for each method of investment used. As such we had to support merging and splitting of loan units to any arbitrary size, which has also meant that anyone looking to sell can sell any amount making it much easier to buy and sell loan units. This freedom has allowed the system to adjust your investments, as instructed but perhaps not intended. However I repeat this is not a change in behaviour but one of opportunity for the system to make an adjustment. If a £1 loan unit had come up for sale on the old site then that same £1 adjustment would have been carried out there. The other thing to remember is that all of these changes are built upon more automated systems in order to still give lenders as much manual control as is practical. Both API based investments and fully automated investments on platform are coming soon and with that there'd be no way of competing manually, it wasn't at all practical to retain a fully manual process much in the same way as you see automated bidding starting to dominate sites like Funding Circle. Using manual invest and setting your target will give you the same opportunity as any of the other methods of investing the platform supports whilst still letting you choose which loans you want to put your money in to. If you want a more fire and forget approach where you don't have to micro-manage your loan book then there will be products for you. And if you fancy programming the site to run your investment strategy how you see fit then that facility will be there as well. But for those who don't want to use those tools there will still be this existing manual investment option, and their opportunity to invest will not be any different to those using the other solutions. All of this is already coded and live on the site with the interface hidden, so all of that complexity and those systems are there in operation behind the scenes and everything you see has to work in tandem with those solutions. There are commercial not technical reasons why they haven't launched yet but they will be released in the coming days and weeks.
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oldgrumpy
Member of DD Central
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 21, 2014 18:52:23 GMT
I'm checking through my portfolio and adjusting some of the investment targets to elimininate what looks like the up'n'coming 1 and 2p purchases and sales nonsense!!! chris [Mod: loan 21] heading shows 60/60 months in the "term remaining" They have already made 14 months of payments.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:53:14 GMT
I have stopped looking as everytime I log back into my account my accrued interest amount decreases, if it continues I may need a loan. The accrued interest is only showing for those loan units you still hold. Calculating the accrued interest for loan units you've sold is a computationally expensive operation which is usually only carried out at point of payment, and for which we need to build a caching layer. This will be sorted in the next couple of days, but what is displayed does not affect what is actually paid out.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:53:46 GMT
I'm checking through my portfolio and adjusting some of the investment targets to elimininate what looks like the up'n'coming 1 and 2p purchases and sales nonsense!!! chris [Mod: loan 21] heading shows 60/60 months in the "term remaining" They have already made 14 months of payments. There's a ticket created for this, will be fixed tomorrow.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:54:14 GMT
I too have a load of "phantom mandates" that I certainly did not authorize or request. A "target" has been set for every loan I had, but had no AI target for (under old system), a target equivalent to my holding, which will now "fix" those loans at that holding. Not at all what I wanted or expected. chris: What about a rule that says "If target == holding, then STOP THE MAI !" -- that way, if someone adjusts up (or down) the MAI will try and hunt to the target. Then, if a loan repays a bit of capital, the MAI will keep it's neb out, with a target of X, but a hollding of Y, and the situation will stay like that until the target is adjusted and MAI turned back on. Of course, this supposes that the MAI can be switched on and off, which it now can't (?) Manual investment is always on, but if your holding and target are equal then it will ignore you. There's still a debate to be had around auto diversification and whether that too should operate on manual investments. At the moment you have to have a target, it's your current holdings. When the site was set live if you had an active auto invest target then that target was used otherwise it was set to your current holdings. There has been an oversight where if you had a different target set in AI and had disabled either buying or selling then that has been incorrectly ignored as it wasn't mapped to the new system which doesn't have those concepts. What we should have done is in those instances instead set the target to be your current loan holding. This was a last minute change as our original intention was to ignore the old AI settings completely but there were complaints on this forum that several lenders had spent a lot of time reviewing loans and setting targets so we imported the settings - apologies that this has caused further issue. I'm not sure how best to correct for that now - I suspect that if I start making blanket changes to the settings then it's going to overwrite changes that people have made since then which will cause as much anger as if I leave it as is. You can quickly see all your holdings and targets via the loan book screen (https://www.assetzcapital.co.uk/investments/loan-book) so I'm tempted to leave it as is and ask lenders to set their targets to whatever level of investment they actually want. That the target doesn't track principal repayments - this is identical to the old system. Indeed there was a debate on this forum about whether or not it should. I have a solution in mind so that it will count down with each repayment as they're made, but suspect that this will still cause confusion. For example if you set your target to £500 but nothing is immediately available and then a loan repayment occurs, should your target adjust? Should it only track your current holdings and not scale the rest, should it scale everything, etc. I don't remember there ever being a consensus on how it should work last time it was discussed, so for now it is set to copy the old behaviour but I am happy to discuss this further and come up with a solution everyone is happy with. Where this has caused confusion is that the system can now buy and sell in much smaller units. Loan units are no longer held in £100 chunks, each lender will usually end up with one loan unit in each loan for each method of investment used. As such we had to support merging and splitting of loan units to any arbitrary size, which has also meant that anyone looking to sell can sell any amount making it much easier to buy and sell loan units. This freedom has allowed the system to adjust your investments, as instructed but perhaps not intended. However I repeat this is not a change in behaviour but one of opportunity for the system to make an adjustment. If a £1 loan unit had come up for sale on the old site then that same £1 adjustment would have been carried out there. The other thing to remember is that all of these changes are built upon more automated systems in order to still give lenders as much manual control as is practical. Both API based investments and fully automated investments on platform are coming soon and with that there'd be no way of competing manually, it wasn't at all practical to retain a fully manual process much in the same way as you see automated bidding starting to dominate sites like Funding Circle. Using manual invest and setting your target will give you the same opportunity as any of the other methods of investing the platform supports whilst still letting you choose which loans you want to put your money in to. If you want a more fire and forget approach where you don't have to micro-manage your loan book then there will be products for you. And if you fancy programming the site to run your investment strategy how you see fit then that facility will be there as well. But for those who don't want to use those tools there will still be this existing manual investment option, and their opportunity to invest will not be any different to those using the other solutions. All of this is already coded and live on the site with the interface hidden, so all of that complexity and those systems are there in operation behind the scenes and everything you see has to work in tandem with those solutions. There are commercial not technical reasons why they haven't launched yet but they will be released in the coming days and weeks. Bumping this to a new page so more people will see it.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:55:15 GMT
I too have a load of "phantom mandates" that I certainly did not authorize or request. A "target" has been set for every loan I had, but had no AI target for (under old system), a target equivalent to my holding, which will now "fix" those loans at that holding. Not at all what I wanted or expected. chris: What about a rule that says "If target == holding, then STOP THE MAI !" -- that way, if someone adjusts up (or down) the MAI will try and hunt to the target. Then, if a loan repays a bit of capital, the MAI will keep it's neb out, with a target of X, but a hollding of Y, and the situation will stay like that until the target is adjusted and MAI turned back on. Of course, this supposes that the MAI can be switched on and off, which it now can't (?) Having just trawled through every loan, I found one which had a target of £5000! I was never interested in that loan & never went anywhere near it from day 1. Where did that come from? Suffice to say I used the 'opt-out' option on that & a few others. Wonder if it will make a difference & if I'll end up with some units still once some come on AM? If you PM me your email then I'll double check but I'd put money on you having an auto invest target for that amount on that loan.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:56:32 GMT
All the buying/selling transactions from today via new site have now disappeared from my statement. Does that mean I'm getting my money/loan parts back & getting rid of the ones I never wanted/mandated to buy? I doubt it as my balance is the same after the initial AC c**k up! I've more or less always backed AC where there have been small errors but this is peoples' money we're dealing with & the new system should have been watertight before going live! Mine, as shown in the screen shot in my last post, are still there. We've not made any changes, and it's impossible for me to change your statement once transactions are settled without bypassing a lot of safety checks (which no one else in the business has access to).
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Oct 21, 2014 18:57:09 GMT
There several ways to stop it, either a simple flag to stop the MAI running, or to give people the choice of setting either a % target or value target. In the case of the value target I really want to see the return of the maximum % so that I don't have the risk of holding a whole loan at some future point. At the moment it looks like I am going to have to spend my birthday going through all my loans and dropping the MAI target to match the amortised value and then repeating the process on each repayment comes in. You've sent me off down a thought tangent here (apologies for taking it off topic - somebody feel free to move the post elsewhere if appropriate). I'll preface my query by saying I agree with what you're asking for. But you've just made me curious about my own attitude to the risks. If the amount of a loan you might be holding was at a comfortable risk level for you personally, and all other loan-related variables were equal, what is it about holding 100% of a loan that you wouldn't like versus, say, 10% of the loan? That is to say, why do you think it is preferable to be sharing the risk with other lenders? So, if your holding were £20K for example, why would it be OK if the whole loan was for £200K but not if the whole loan was for just that £20K. I can see that if 'feels' more comfortable, but is it really any different? Edit: I can see samford71 has unwittingly provided me a partial answer to this already whilst I was posting . But your actual risk doesn't increase by keeping your amount the same, it just doesn't decrease. Surely the risk level has decreased as LTV is reduced, even if you had acquired 100% of the loan?
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 18:58:55 GMT
I don't think the shrapnel has come from people dropping £1 loan parts - I think it's due to the fact that even sizeable parts are now split 'fairly' between all people requesting them as explained by Chris here: p2pindependentforum.com/post/25358/thread . I think we're all getting the shrapnel now. Edit: and hence my comment earlier about the impossibility of us being able to track interest due manually from here on in. The statement entries are already here - under the three line menu icon at the right hand end of the investment account section. chris: Thanks for the pointer about the statements -- the confusing thing is that Reports->Statement shows activity up till this morning, and two entries of "Cash Transfers To Manual", the new hamburger? icon shows transactions from there onward. Is it the intention that the statement facility on "Manual" will show all the detail from here on in, and "Reports->Statement" will be bland movements of cash in and out of AC, and in and out of "pots" such as manual? Any comments on the all the other accounting and display errors? ramblin rose: Well then tracking the existing errors to see if they have been fixed will also become impossible. I guess that's a "convenient" side effect of the new system. There will be no problems as we won't be able to see it going wrong. The old system used to use your cash account for all activity, hence the items on the statement, whereas all new activity is segregated. There's no real elegant solution to that so it's just something lenders will need to get used to.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 21, 2014 19:02:38 GMT
I'm checking through my portfolio and adjusting some of the investment targets to elimininate what looks like the up'n'coming 1 and 2p purchases and sales nonsense!!! chris [Mod: loan 21] heading shows 60/60 months in the "term remaining" They have already made 14 months of payments. chris BLUNDER??
Can you detect what I just did? tried to reduce my target in [Mod: loan 21] by £0.01 to equalise the target with holding figures and the whole lot has been sold leaving me with one penny invested. Can you check exactly what my instruction was? One of the loan parts was 847694.
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Post by chris on Oct 21, 2014 19:05:16 GMT
I'm checking through my portfolio and adjusting some of the investment targets to elimininate what looks like the up'n'coming 1 and 2p purchases and sales nonsense!!! chris [Mod: loan 21] heading shows 60/60 months in the "term remaining" They have already made 14 months of payments. chris BLUNDER??
Can you detect what I just did? tried to reduce my target in [Mod: loan 21] by £0.01 to equalise the target with holding figures and the whole lot has been sold leaving me with one penny invested. Can you check exactly what my instruction was? One of the loan parts was 847694.
You've set your target to be 1p rather than reduced it by 1p.
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