ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,330 
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 17, 2015 11:06:32 GMT
A complete load of b******ks <deleted while I think again> Wouldnt worry. Ive just discredited myself  Thanks to your post I might add which nudged my addled brain
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Post by Come_on_Grandad on Mar 17, 2015 11:31:02 GMT
chris -- I have no holding in Angelesey any more, but am due interest from this loan. Today, accrued interest went DOWN for this loan. Is there any legitimate reason for this? Are AC still feeding through manual adjustments and "rounding errors" corrections? This is not the first time accrued interest has gone down on a loan. Additionally loans are still failing to update accrued interest all over the place, now anything up to 4 days behind reality. Has been for a while now. I've tried reporting these account/website problems to Mark Wardrop, as requested by andrewholgate on here, and have been since the start of December last year, but am getting absolutely nowhere in terms of concrete answers. I've forced a recalculation of accrued interest on all loans. Can you verify if the accrued interest figure on that loan is as you would expect? I don't have a valid reason for it decreasing unless it was either previously over reporting or you were mistaken? Hate to suggest the latter but need to clear it off. I've also had an idea that will elegantly solve the accrued interest problem without needing to make extensive changes elsewhere so I can get it implemented today. The main reason we hadn't been able to fix the issue thus far was because our long term plan involved restructuring the way the accrued interest was stored which had a lot of knock on effects throughout the rest of the code base. Whilst the change itself was relatively simple it was that knock on effect that made it impractical to tackle. I've just had an idea that lets me side step that problem to buy us as much time as we need. Just to provide some backup for mikeb, I have daily snapshots and the accrued figure you show for me has decreased from yesterday to today. I have traded this loan in its early days, so I have not attempted to calculate my own accrued figure ... maybe if I get bored. However, my holding has been static for the last three months and that's an easy calculation ... my accrued should have increased by £4.50 for each £100 held ... and the change in my snapshots over that three month period is incorrect - not even close. So either it was wrong three months ago and right now, or vice versa, or systematically wrong.
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Post by chris on Mar 17, 2015 11:41:33 GMT
I've forced a recalculation of accrued interest on all loans. Can you verify if the accrued interest figure on that loan is as you would expect? I don't have a valid reason for it decreasing unless it was either previously over reporting or you were mistaken? Hate to suggest the latter but need to clear it off. I've also had an idea that will elegantly solve the accrued interest problem without needing to make extensive changes elsewhere so I can get it implemented today. The main reason we hadn't been able to fix the issue thus far was because our long term plan involved restructuring the way the accrued interest was stored which had a lot of knock on effects throughout the rest of the code base. Whilst the change itself was relatively simple it was that knock on effect that made it impractical to tackle. I've just had an idea that lets me side step that problem to buy us as much time as we need. Just to provide some backup for mikeb, I have daily snapshots and the accrued figure you show for me has decreased from yesterday to today. I have traded this loan in its early days, so I have not attempted to calculate my own accrued figure ... maybe if I get bored. However, my holding has been static for the last three months and that's an easy calculation ... my accrued should have increased by £4.50 for each £100 held ... and the change in my snapshots over that three month period is incorrect - not even close. So either it was wrong three months ago and right now, or vice versa, or systematically wrong. If it's one specific loan then it's possible that the admin team have made an adjustment to the repayment schedule. The accrued interest figure is calculated afresh each time so any changes to the schedule can and will affect historic figures, there's no carry over of previously calculated figures to affect the new calculation each day. I'll ask the question internally and see if this is the case or not.
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Post by Come_on_Grandad on Mar 17, 2015 12:18:13 GMT
Just to provide some backup for mikeb, I have daily snapshots and the accrued figure you show for me has decreased from yesterday to today. I have traded this loan in its early days, so I have not attempted to calculate my own accrued figure ... maybe if I get bored. However, my holding has been static for the last three months and that's an easy calculation ... my accrued should have increased by £4.50 for each £100 held ... and the change in my snapshots over that three month period is incorrect - not even close. So either it was wrong three months ago and right now, or vice versa, or systematically wrong. If it's one specific loan then it's possible that the admin team have made an adjustment to the repayment schedule. The accrued interest figure is calculated afresh each time so any changes to the schedule can and will affect historic figures, there's no carry over of previously calculated figures to affect the new calculation each day. I'll ask the question internally and see if this is the case or not. Yes, I'm talking Anglesey loan #132 specifically. And now having put my sales and purchases through a spreadsheet, I am happy to confirm that I am in (ballpark) agreement with the accrued figure that you state for me today ... and disagreement with what was being stated three months ago.
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Post by chris on Mar 17, 2015 12:34:39 GMT
If it's one specific loan then it's possible that the admin team have made an adjustment to the repayment schedule. The accrued interest figure is calculated afresh each time so any changes to the schedule can and will affect historic figures, there's no carry over of previously calculated figures to affect the new calculation each day. I'll ask the question internally and see if this is the case or not. Yes, I'm talking Anglesey loan #132 specifically. And now having put my sales and purchases through a spreadsheet, I am happy to confirm that I am in (ballpark) agreement with the accrued figure that you state for me today ... and disagreement with what was being stated three months ago. Having spoken to the admin team it appears that some changes have been made to reflect the state of the loan but that they're not 100% happy with the schedule of payments at the moment so will be making some further changes to make sure it is all correct.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,330
Likes: 11,549
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 17, 2015 12:50:00 GMT
Yes, I'm talking Anglesey loan #132 specifically. And now having put my sales and purchases through a spreadsheet, I am happy to confirm that I am in (ballpark) agreement with the accrued figure that you state for me today ... and disagreement with what was being stated three months ago. Having spoken to the admin team it appears that some changes have been made to reflect the state of the loan but that they're not 100% happy with the schedule of payments at the moment so will be making some further changes to make sure it is all correct. Dont suppose they can take a look at #129 Ippy & hopefully finally sort that one out too? It still looks to have accrued a month more interest than it should have.
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mikeb
Posts: 1,072
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Post by mikeb on Mar 17, 2015 18:33:33 GMT
Having spoken to the admin team it appears that some changes have been made to reflect the state of the loan but that they're not 100% happy with the schedule of payments at the moment so will be making some further changes to make sure it is all correct. Dont suppose they can take a look at #129 Ippy & hopefully finally sort that one out too? It still looks to have accrued a month more interest than it should have. Oh, how many times has *that* been reported, and a "nudge" applied to people to fix it? chris regarding Anglesey, there's no mistake, so you can cross that one off. Because I distrust the figures being presented -- with very good reason -- I check every loan EVERY day now. This shouldn't be necessary. Anglesey has had a static amount accrued for months, since I sold it all off, holding = £0.00. On 20th Feb accrued increased for no reason (with no explanation forthcoming), and went back down a bit on 17th March. It's "broadly in line" with expectations, but who knows really as it is so hard to get accurate information and dates to CHECK this -- previously when I've asked for breakdowns of working it has either not been provided (despite reminders) or flat out refused. And again, it wouldn't necessary to ask for, or provide this information, if the calculations were done correctly and not being manipulated and patched around.
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Post by chris on Mar 17, 2015 18:49:35 GMT
Dont suppose they can take a look at #129 Ippy & hopefully finally sort that one out too? It still looks to have accrued a month more interest than it should have. Oh, how many times has *that* been reported, and a "nudge" applied to people to fix it? chris regarding Anglesey, there's no mistake, so you can cross that one off. Because I distrust the figures being presented -- with very good reason -- I check every loan EVERY day now. This shouldn't be necessary. Anglesey has had a static amount accrued for months, since I sold it all off, holding = £0.00. On 20th Feb accrued increased for no reason (with no explanation forthcoming), and went back down a bit on 17th March. It's "broadly in line" with expectations, but who knows really as it is so hard to get accurate information and dates to CHECK this -- previously when I've asked for breakdowns of working it has either not been provided (despite reminders) or flat out refused. And again, it wouldn't necessary to ask for, or provide this information, if the calculations were done correctly and not being manipulated and patched around. In IT's defence the calculations themselves haven't been changed since around October / November (forget the exact date), although if memory serves there have been a couple of display issues with accrued interest since then. When things are being changed all that's being adjusted is the repayment schedule. If the schedule displayed against each loan is accurate then the accrued interest and interest paid to lenders will be accurate. I'm not sure what format you'd like the information given in - it's a recursive tree of loan unit ownership with splitting and merging of loan units along the way. I could perhaps calculate an ownership figure at close of play each day, which is effectively what is currently used to calculate the the interest owed. But that would be a fair bit of work so I don't know when I could get that done for you.
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tonyr
Member of DD Central
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Post by tonyr on Mar 17, 2015 21:26:56 GMT
ilmoro Oh, how many times has *that* been reported, and a "nudge" applied to people to fix it? chris regarding Anglesey, there's no mistake, so you can cross that one off. Because I distrust the figures being presented -- with very good reason -- I check every loan EVERY day now. This shouldn't be necessary. Anglesey has had a static amount accrued for months, since I sold it all off, holding = £0.00. On 20th Feb accrued increased for no reason (with no explanation forthcoming), and went back down a bit on 17th March. It's "broadly in line" with expectations, but who knows really as it is so hard to get accurate information and dates to CHECK this -- previously when I've asked for breakdowns of working it has either not been provided (despite reminders) or flat out refused. And again, it wouldn't necessary to ask for, or provide this information, if the calculations were done correctly and not being manipulated and patched around. In IT's defence the calculations themselves haven't been changed since around October / November (forget the exact date), although if memory serves there have been a couple of display issues with accrued interest since then. When things are being changed all that's being adjusted is the repayment schedule. If the schedule displayed against each loan is accurate then the accrued interest and interest paid to lenders will be accurate. I'm not sure what format you'd like the information given in - it's a recursive tree of loan unit ownership with splitting and merging of loan units along the way. I could perhaps calculate an ownership figure at close of play each day, which is effectively what is currently used to calculate the the interest owed. But that would be a fair bit of work so I don't know when I could get that done for you. * It really shouldn't be necessary to check interest owed on every loan every day - if people can't trust the platform the money will move elsewhere * It is necessary to use *exactly* the same method used to calculate interest owed as to display the accrued interest. That's what accrued means. This is a huge long thread and it shouldn't have been. If I were running AC I'd get this problem fixed ASAP. Lenders have to trust the platform or they will move to a platform they can trust - and other P2P providers do get this right. If AC piss off the numerate who can count money and care about getting things right then they'll end up with only customers who can't manage money. Do AC want to become a Wonga?
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Post by chris on Mar 17, 2015 21:43:06 GMT
In IT's defence the calculations themselves haven't been changed since around October / November (forget the exact date), although if memory serves there have been a couple of display issues with accrued interest since then. When things are being changed all that's being adjusted is the repayment schedule. If the schedule displayed against each loan is accurate then the accrued interest and interest paid to lenders will be accurate. I'm not sure what format you'd like the information given in - it's a recursive tree of loan unit ownership with splitting and merging of loan units along the way. I could perhaps calculate an ownership figure at close of play each day, which is effectively what is currently used to calculate the the interest owed. But that would be a fair bit of work so I don't know when I could get that done for you. * It really shouldn't be necessary to check interest owed on every loan every day - if people can't trust the platform the money will move elsewhere * It is necessary to use *exactly* the same method used to calculate interest owed as to display the accrued interest. That's what accrued means. This is a huge long thread and it shouldn't have been. If I were running AC I'd get this problem fixed ASAP. Lenders have to trust the platform or they will move to a platform they can trust - and other P2P providers do get this right. If AC piss off the numerate who can count money and care about getting things right then they'll end up with only customers who can't manage money. Do AC want to become a Wonga? You can't use exactly the same calculation for accrued interest and calculated interest as one is based on calculating interest up to the current date the other is calculated up to the end of the current repayment period. An adaptation of the same formula is used but there is that difference. The fix for the storage of the accrued interest causing a database deadlock has also been set live. I'll keep an eye on it for the next couple of days. We take our lender's money, including returns, very seriously. To date no lender has lost out due to a system issue or admin mistake. No changes to the interest calculations have been made since the upgrade last October, there have not been any programming bugs in that essential code. There have been a handful of errors in setting up the repayment schedules that have affected the accrued interest shown to lenders and in some cases the interest rates displayed, and whilst these are unacceptable and the management team have been taking steps to address this including system changes, no lenders have incurred any losses as a result. We are also engaged in a program of automation to remove the human element from as much of the process as possible.
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Post by Jack Barlow on Mar 17, 2015 23:33:06 GMT
<extract> To date no lender has lost out due to a system issue or admin mistake. , is this a good time to remind you about the issue with incorrectly paid accrued interest first reported almost a year ago p2pindependentforum.com/post/8881/thread? I’m still happy to wait patiently for a fix but it shouldn’t really take this long, should it?
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ed
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Post by ed on Mar 18, 2015 1:01:23 GMT
This is a huge long thread and it shouldn't have been. If I were running AC I'd get this problem fixed ASAP. Lenders have to trust the platform or they will move to a platform they can trust - and other P2P providers do get this right. If AC piss off the numerate who can count money and care about getting things right then they'll end up with only customers who can't manage money. Do AC want to become a Wonga? Couldn't agree more. When it comes to fish I am definitely of the minnow species, but , have pulled out nearly all my money due to this and placed elsewhere, not laying any blame just wanted a system that tallied with my own accounts as I have plenty of other things to do than manually work out interest every day, too tiresome and I am where possible extremely lazy . Have to say other than that I have been extremely happy with AC. Tis a shame really.
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tonyr
Member of DD Central
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Post by tonyr on Mar 18, 2015 6:32:45 GMT
* It really shouldn't be necessary to check interest owed on every loan every day - if people can't trust the platform the money will move elsewhere * It is necessary to use *exactly* the same method used to calculate interest owed as to display the accrued interest. That's what accrued means. This is a huge long thread and it shouldn't have been. If I were running AC I'd get this problem fixed ASAP. Lenders have to trust the platform or they will move to a platform they can trust - and other P2P providers do get this right. If AC piss off the numerate who can count money and care about getting things right then they'll end up with only customers who can't manage money. Do AC want to become a Wonga? You can't use exactly the same calculation for accrued interest and calculated interest as one is based on calculating interest up to the current date the other is calculated up to the end of the current repayment period. An adaptation of the same formula is used but there is that difference. I'm having a hard time trying to understand this. Surely the interest accrued is the interest which will be paid over the entire period divided by the fraction of that period that the units have been held for. As we can buy and sell units the interest has to be really calculated on a day-by-day basis, albeit that it only becomes cash when the interest is paid. So from a software perspective there should just be one value per day which is the interest due on a loan and if that loan gets repaid by the end of the month (as expected) then all the daily interest values add up to the monthly repayment. Then there's no inconsistency problem because there is only one method used to calculate interest - the right one.
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Post by pepperpot on Mar 18, 2015 11:20:15 GMT
You can't use exactly the same calculation for accrued interest and calculated interest as one is based on calculating interest up to the current date the other is calculated up to the end of the current repayment period. An adaptation of the same formula is used but there is that difference. I'm having a hard time trying to understand this. Surely the interest accrued is the interest which will be paid over the entire period divided by the fraction of that period that the units have been held for. As we can buy and sell units the interest has to be really calculated on a day-by-day basis, albeit that it only becomes cash when the interest is paid. So from a software perspective there should just be one value per day which is the interest due on a loan and if that loan gets repaid by the end of the month (as expected) then all the daily interest values add up to the monthly repayment. Then there's no inconsistency problem because there is only one method used to calculate interest - the right one. I think I agree. The only variance I can see is on a monthly basis, where identical monthly interest payments get divided by a slightly differing number of days, but the calc should be the same formula. Sorry if this seems like a waste of time chris, but could you spell out the two different calculations you mentioned? AFAICS one value should just be a % of the other.
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Post by Jack Barlow on Mar 18, 2015 11:28:21 GMT
One issue I could see is that you'd end up with a negative accrued interest if a payment is received and processed before the due date.
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