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Post by shanghaiscouse on Aug 19, 2019 17:44:22 GMT
I am considering taking legal action against FD for breach of fiduciary duty. In their rush to be the lender of choice to SMEs in the UK their lending standards have gone through the floor and I have so many instances of loans that should never have been given going bad. The examples are too numerous to mention, but a generic example is they lend money to a company when it already has negative net assets in its audit report and is clearly struggling with debt, the repayments go on for 6 months then the company goes into insolvency with the FC cash having disappeared in the meantime. Is anyone on here interested in joining and funding the lawyer's fees.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 19, 2019 17:52:04 GMT
the repayments go on for 6 months Thats one of the better ones!
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Stonk
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Post by Stonk on Aug 19, 2019 21:03:51 GMT
I am considering taking legal action against FD for breach of fiduciary duty. In their rush to be the lender of choice to SMEs in the UK their lending standards have gone through the floor and I have so many instances of loans that should never have been given going bad. The examples are too numerous to mention, but a generic example is they lend money to a company when it already has negative net assets in its audit report and is clearly struggling with debt, the repayments go on for 6 months then the company goes into insolvency with the FC cash having disappeared in the meantime. Is anyone on here interested in joining and funding the lawyer's fees.
There's so much wriggle-room in FC's T&Cs and their performance claims that I have no idea of the probability of success.
It would be something I would have taken a punt on ... except the maximum I could possibly gain (refund of all defaulted amounts) would be dwarfed by the legal costs. In the US it would be a different matter, I suspect. There, you could probably sue for actual losses plus a couple of hundred billion in punitive damages.
So despite the moral justice aspect, I'm afraid I am out.
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Post by gravitykillz on Aug 20, 2019 8:20:38 GMT
I am considering taking legal action against FD for breach of fiduciary duty. In their rush to be the lender of choice to SMEs in the UK their lending standards have gone through the floor and I have so many instances of loans that should never have been given going bad. The examples are too numerous to mention, but a generic example is they lend money to a company when it already has negative net assets in its audit report and is clearly struggling with debt, the repayments go on for 6 months then the company goes into insolvency with the FC cash having disappeared in the meantime. Is anyone on here interested in joining and funding the lawyer's fees. Just as risky as investing in the actual platform. And it's true that funding circle terms and conditions allow them to practically wiggle out of responsibility for any of their loans. The terms are drawn up by lawyers and they will just state the usual 'your capital is at risk' statement that they display so much.
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Post by gravitykillz on Aug 20, 2019 8:25:59 GMT
Their poor choice of unsecured loans and the change in format made me leave the platform in late 2016.I would urge others to do the same.There are far superior platforms out there for your money. (Just do some research on this forum)
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 20, 2019 8:47:38 GMT
There are far superior platforms out there for your money. If you're comparing them with FC then you're not setting the bar very high
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Post by dazp70 on Aug 20, 2019 9:10:37 GMT
I suppose that you could take the view that the information given by FC when it was presented did not give a wholly accurate description of the loans they were selling. In particular they gave projections which they would have known were not realistic. In fact they covered up the real performance by hiding the actual performance of their loan book. So in this regard, there could be the basis of a complaint.
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pip
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Post by pip on Aug 20, 2019 11:38:21 GMT
I am considering taking legal action against FD for breach of fiduciary duty. In their rush to be the lender of choice to SMEs in the UK their lending standards have gone through the floor and I have so many instances of loans that should never have been given going bad. The examples are too numerous to mention, but a generic example is they lend money to a company when it already has negative net assets in its audit report and is clearly struggling with debt, the repayments go on for 6 months then the company goes into insolvency with the FC cash having disappeared in the meantime. Is anyone on here interested in joining and funding the lawyer's fees. I don't think going down the route of claiming a breach of fiduciary duty of care is the right one. The fiduciary duty only extends to members (shareholders in common parlance) and not to other stakeholders. In short all the director has to do is to say a) this person suing me is not a shareholder and I owe them no duty of care under Companies Act 2006 and b) that he or she acted in what they reasonably believed to be in the interest of the success of the company. If you take this legal action is will likely cause you a lot of stress, costs and I suspect you will lose. You are far better off reporting the concerns you have with these loans as a complaint, firstly to FC and if you are not happy with their response to the FOS. In my opinion you are best arguing that the companies actions did not abide by the FCA's principles - www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/PRIN/2/1.html. Areas to focus on in my opinion would be: 2. A firm must conduct its business with due skill, care and diligence. - You could argue that they didn't do this with regard to due diligence on these loans; and 7. A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading. - You could argue that the information provided to you on these loans did not give a fair representation of the facts. The previous decisions of the FCA for P2P have erred on the side of not awarding compensation when a loan defaults. They have justified this as the risks were made clear to the investor and that the due diligence and recovery activities were reasonable at the time. It is not reasonable to hold every p2p platform responsible for every loan going bad, as defaults are to be expected. I think there will soon be further cases and potentially legal challenges to FOS rulings for P2P defaults. I think the current threshold which p2p platforms need to pass on their investment prospectus' are so much lower than the prospectus' for other investments that this situation is untenable. However in the mean time I don't see people having much success in claiming compensation because their loans have not performed as expected. I don't actually think the right thing is for investors to claim compensation for individual loans going wrong. I think this for two reasons, a) diversified investors may be invested in thousands of loans and it is not practical for investors to complain or for the FOS potentially hundreds of loans per investor and b) as previously stated, loans going wrong is part of p2p lending and if investors can claim for every default from the platform this will only lead to a huge mess. What is more realistic is that sites should have to be a lot more careful in the information they display on historic and expected overall returns. If they do decide to display this information then they should expect to be held accountable when actual performance doesn't reflect what they advertised. I think some platforms play fast and loose with historic returns by delaying defaulting very suspect loans to increase the returns they advertise to new investors. Even displaying expected returns to investors I believe is very questionable, given the uncertainties there are on whether the actual returns will have any relation to expectations.
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Post by shanghaiscouse on Aug 20, 2019 14:35:52 GMT
My problem is not with individual loans going wrong, that will happen, if I had my money in a bank, and they made loans, some will go bad. My problem is that FC set out with reckless abandon to virtually ensure that more loans would go wrong by applying such obviously low lending standards that they were giving loans out to borrowers with no reasonable possibility of avoiding default. In my portfolio almost every loan that has gone bad could have been foreseen at time of lending. Why would anyone lend money to a business with negative net assets? Their target, which they achieved, to lend more to SMEs than the UK banking sector combined, is reckless and can only be achieved by either giving the money away for free or by handing it out to any Tom, Dick or Harry.
For those who say they have too little invested to make it worthwhile, then that's the whole purpose of doing it as a class....you add up all the little bits and share the costs and the headache.
Once I have pulled together my evidence I shall approach class action specialists that work with those PE funds that finance legal actions as a speculative investment opportunity because the amount of money involved here is large enough to make it worth their while
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pip
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Post by pip on Aug 20, 2019 15:04:33 GMT
shanghaiscouse - I don't think you read my post, your intended route of taking action against directors for breach of their fiduciary duties under the 2006 companies act is not a route which will be successful.
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bramhall17
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Post by bramhall17 on Aug 20, 2019 15:32:41 GMT
I agree. FC as an entity do not owe a 'duty of care' to lenders in this respect. FCA and FOS would be better routes to try as set out by 'pip'.
Even if they did, then you would have to demonstrate 'best endeavours' to seek a remedy for loss mitigation and this would loop back to active engagement with FCA and FOS plus FC itself. If you ploughed ahead regardless, you would be building up legal fees then court fees and your what is called 'litigation risk' would be exacerbated,as no judge wants to see cases where the alternatives have not been explored by constructive engagement.
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dorset
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Post by dorset on Aug 20, 2019 17:40:48 GMT
There are no grounds for a class action by FC lenders.
I do believe as I have said before on this blog, that current FC shareholders have a case for a class action against FC directors and the reporting accountants for the IPO. FC loaded up the loan book with c**p to create a market impression that they had huge growth potential and no one at the time of the IPO reported on the state of the loan book as it was not a FC asset.
FC shareholders from the IPO have lost upwards of 75% of share value. They have bought into a company that has no viable business model but were led to believe that it had one. There is no huge growth potential for FC from quality SME borrowers. The banks will always take the best prospects and leave FC with the dross. If FC then attempts to separate out the odd good bits from the dross then there is no growth and simply cash burn.
However if IPO investors had checked these blogs in 2018 they would have realised that we had, by spring 2018 spotted what the game was. I had 19 defaults in May 2018 alone – all from the 2016/2017 cohort. We were already commenting on the problem lurking in the loan book from spring 2018 onwards.
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wuzimu
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Post by wuzimu on Aug 20, 2019 18:57:53 GMT
FWIW I can see liabilities FC may owe shareholders partaking in the IPO, ... but I'm not a shareholder so haven't pondered long on it and this forum is not for shareholder disputes.
I have a much firmer view that FC owe some lenders a liability springing from misrepresentations and breaches of agency and trust.
I don't know how strong or widespread the liability might be because I have only a small residue of FC problem property loans left, but I have dug down in detail into those and I have brought my complaint and I am very confident on some loans.
So my view of FC is...
1. yes they are a complete shower,
2. any liabilities you feel FC owe you WILL be on a loan by loan basis - you have to evidence specific legal breaches whether at FOS or at law. 3. If you choose to go the court route, a group of others in the same loan(s) may be useful, but you DON'T need money. That is because if you have a good case you can find a law firm to offer you a no-win no fee deal. If you can't find such a deal, that means experts can't see a likely win based on your evidence.
In that case don't waste your own money...go FOS instead.
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bramhall17
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Post by bramhall17 on Aug 21, 2019 7:51:18 GMT
"If you choose to go the court route, a group of others in the same loan(s) may be useful, but you DON'T need money. That is because if you have a good case you can find a law firm to offer you a no-win no fee deal. If you can't find such a deal, that means experts can't see a likely win based on your evidence. In that case don't waste your own money...go FOS instead".
You might be right that you can. But in civil cases I would be surprised if you got a firm that would also pick up the court costs (£12k--15k) . You have to also be very sure that nothing arises in discovery that is prejudicial that you should have known. Ultimately it becomes a risk .v. reward equation either way. In this scenario syndication has a compelling logic to it.
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Post by shanghaiscouse on Aug 21, 2019 20:02:48 GMT
Bravo for a great set of comments, some high quality minds out there. Once my kids are back at school I shall be able to work on this full time....
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