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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Dec 10, 2015 19:48:28 GMT
This vote result is madness OK, here we go (head protruding slightly above the parapet) I voted B. I don't really care about what business the borrower may bring to the platform in the future. What I had trouble with is how allowing the borrower to take on a load more debt was going to help holders of the original loan. Well I would say that they have a continuing business and it's fairly normal to continue a relation when it seems to be working, with this vote it appears that they have to go to another source for the money (if there isn't a second vote) when they had a reasonable prospect of cheaper money here. It might even make sense for them to refinance the whole loan with the other source so AC loses all their business. By deciding to not fulfil a reasonable request it might make Introducers think again as well as others. It also messes with their cashflow, hopefully they had a contingency and weren't relying on us, but I should imagine that AC said at the outset that there was the prospect of more funds if they needed them. My view in January of why the South Coast Plumber failed was because we were slow in filling their second loan, but subsequent information say I was wrong in this.
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Dec 10, 2015 20:52:43 GMT
Re Loan 86 - the 'Scottish loan'
I don't think this auction is even intended to produce sufficient cash to clear the loan on it's own.
I mentioned earlier
The first auction reference I found for the loan property, and I'm fairly certain the same one that others commenting here have seen, was described as:
But....there is no auction date on the auction details, the Lot No. on this does not occur in any recent catalogue, 9/10 Dec, and this auction house has no further entries in their calendar until Feb. So I looked further and found this, same address, with another auction house, going under the hammer on 17 Dec.
AC's updates make no mention of an intention to sell all seven flats, rather that he was 'looking to sell assets to reduce overall debt and ongoing servicing costs. In order to do this he has contacted an Auction House to progress these sales'.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 10, 2015 21:21:04 GMT
This vote result is madness OK, here we go (head protruding slightly above the parapet) I voted B. I don't really care about what business the borrower may bring to the platform in the future. What I had trouble with is how allowing the borrower to take on a load more debt was going to help holders of the original loan. agent69: Sorry, but I really really don't get that. The borrower might go somewhere else for the financing; or because of short notice have to do a fire sale. No benefit to anyone. It is surely in the purview of the directors to assess whether taking on more debt is reasonable/sustainable/in the interests of the shareholders. The only concern of lenders on the first loan should be their own position/maintenance of the security, not second guess the business. In contrast it would absolutely be a consideration for anyone funding a second loan to assess whether the level of debt/security/rate on the second loan reflected a reasonable return/risk balance. But nothing to do with lenders on the first loan.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 10, 2015 21:34:01 GMT
I just hope the borrower can provide alternative security for the new loan, rather than go elsewhere with all future business. Whilst the lender(s) voting for option B will ultimately have to answer for themselves, one possible concern (particularly for those holding large quantities of the present loan) could be over liquidity of their existing loan units. In particular, the email calling for votes did not make it clear what interest rate to lenders the new loan would have, and if it was somewhat higher as might reasonably be expected for a second charge ranking behind the existing loan, those holding the existing loan may prefer to hold the new one instead, making it harder to liquidate units in the existing loan. Conversely, with only one loan to that borrower on the platform, anyone seeking exposure to that borrower MUST acquire it from that loan, creating demand for the existing loan units. IMHO, sl75's suggested possible lenders' concerns are unlikely to have a chance to come to pass. With the value of the security most likely having been increased by the works already completed, if the borrowers wish to use that to increase their borrowing and are refused by AC -- as now seems inevitable unless AC call for a re-vote -- then they really have only one option. And that's to take their business elsewhere. With the refusal by AC meaning they can't have a second charge -- whether borrowing additional funds from AC or elsewhere -- they'll go to another lender and refinance into a new, larger, first charge. And AC lenders will find that the existing loan that they're happy to hold will disappear via an early repayment. The result will be £3.3M of cash coming back into lenders' accounts -- and we all know how difficult it will be to re-deploy that within AC. The entire list of AC's upcoming loans totals just £2.0M -- and some of those might not happen at all. Even including the £0.4M of parts available on the SM still would leave about £1M of lenders' funds with nowhere to go. I really don't think AC did an adequate job of explaining to the voters what the consequence of a vote for either of the options was likely to be. Perhaps they thought the appropriate outcome was so obvious that they didn't need to provide a detailed explanation. We have to hope that this experience will make them think a bit harder about what their lenders need to know when the next vote request email goes out.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 10, 2015 22:08:53 GMT
OK, here we go (head protruding slightly above the parapet) I voted B. I don't really care about what business the borrower may bring to the platform in the future. What I had trouble with is how allowing the borrower to take on a load more debt was going to help holders of the original loan. Well I would say that they have a continuing business and it's fairly normal to continue a relation when it seems to be working, with this vote it appears that they have to go to another source for the money (if there isn't a second vote) when they had a reasonable prospect of cheaper money here. It might even make sense for them to refinance the whole loan with the other source so AC loses all their business. Ton ⓉⓞⓃ: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation but, AFAIK, for the borrower to have a second charge they must have the permission of the first charge holder. It doesn't matter who would be providing the second charge loan, they still would need to have AC's permission. The vote results say AC cannot give that permission, so the borrower can't have a second charge loan -- not just from AC, from anyone. So the suggestion I've bolded above isn't an option if they want to borrow more against this property. To do that, their only option is to pay off the AC loan by refinancing elsewhere. So the answer to agent69's question of how allowing the borrower to take on more debt would help existing lenders is... that it would allow the current loan to continue. With second charge permission denied, I expect the borrower to refinance. And that will mean the existing AC lenders are repaid in full and have to find somewhere else to invest their money. And I suspect that isn't what Option B voters thought would be the result of their vote.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 10, 2015 23:07:56 GMT
#68 CCL Refinance cash received, AC IT error preventing piggy takeoff. Oh well its been over a year, guess a day wont hurt (actually several until accrued default interest payment) Now credited along with multiple interest payments, two of which I dont know what they cover. I assume default interest from 9/14-7/15 is still outstanding. chris I dont suppose there is anyway of adding extra detail to the statement entries so it is clear what such unusual deposits are? Edit: After further consideration Ive worked out what the two payments are (2 weeks in Oct), though there's a third minor one still puzzling me ah got it, last day at default. So @10% October payment to 17/10 week to 24/10 week to 31/10 @13% 1/11-7/12 8/12
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Post by chris on Dec 10, 2015 23:19:25 GMT
#68 CCL Refinance cash received, AC IT error preventing piggy takeoff. Oh well its been over a year, guess a day wont hurt (actually several until accrued default interest payment) Now credited along with multiple interest payments, two of which I dont know what they cover. I assume default interest from 9/14-7/15 is still outstanding. chris I dont suppose there is anyway of adding extra detail to the statement entries so it is clear what such unusual deposits are? Edit: After further consideration Ive worked out what the two payments are (2 weeks in Oct), though there's a third minor one still puzzling me ah got it, last day at default. Going forwards yes, retrospectively no. I'll add it to my to do list.
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Dec 11, 2015 9:44:22 GMT
Another thought about the vote to refuse a second charge - maybe those who voted that way had as their preferred option a complete refinance of the entire loan amount?
AC would presumably be in a position to determine whether the vote against was from investors who did so for sound and well thought-out reasons, or those who got confused by the question.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 11, 2015 11:50:28 GMT
AC would presumably be in a position to determine whether the vote against was from investors who did so for sound and well thought-out reasons, or those who got confused by the question. Yes, but probably not from the data they have now. IMHO they should survey their Option B voters to try to understand why they voted the way they did. It will take a bit of time/effort to do that, but it might help them avoid such debacles in the future.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 11, 2015 12:01:41 GMT
Another thought about the vote to refuse a second charge - maybe those who voted that way had as their preferred option a complete refinance of the entire loan amount? I suppose that's a possibility, but if all they wanted to achieve was to have their investment returned they could have accomplished that easily enough by selling their parts on the SM. (Unless, I suppose, they are holding such a huge position that they thought that trying to sell it all would be difficult. But considering the current supply shortage I'm not sure that's a realistic concern.) And if they wish to continue investing at AC, surely they'd be better off not trying to shrink the AC loan book with a £3.3M redemption -- because that would aggravate the supply/demand balance that's already very lopsided.
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Dec 11, 2015 12:08:31 GMT
I suppose that's a possibility, but if all they wanted to achieve was to have their investment returned they could have accomplished that easily enough by selling their parts on the SM. Not exactly... consider underwriting fees, and that some of the large holders may be due them if they agree to underwrite the refinance... i.e. "I'm happy holding the current loan, but if the borrower's going to get a new AC loan please refinance the whole thing, and I'll have another underwriting fee for underwriting that one too please". An additional loan of only £600k could presumably be covered entirely by the QAA, presumably pushing the traditional underwriters out of the picture entirely.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 11, 2015 12:46:06 GMT
I suppose that's a possibility, but if all they wanted to achieve was to have their investment returned they could have accomplished that easily enough by selling their parts on the SM. Not exactly... consider underwriting fees, and that some of the large holders may be due them if they agree to underwrite the refinance... i.e. "I'm happy holding the current loan, but if the borrower's going to get a new AC loan please refinance the whole thing, and I'll have another underwriting fee for underwriting that one too please". An additional loan of only £600k could presumably be covered entirely by the QAA, presumably pushing the traditional underwriters out of the picture entirely. An interesting possibility. If AC can get a few more loans like the one expected to draw down today written, and can retain pieces of those for the QAA, then they'll be able to continue to increase the investment limits on the QAA and it won't be long before they can tell their underwriters where to go. A £3.9M loan may be beyond their internal underwriting capability now, but in a few months' time...
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bg
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Post by bg on Dec 11, 2015 13:19:03 GMT
Not exactly... consider underwriting fees, and that some of the large holders may be due them if they agree to underwrite the refinance... i.e. "I'm happy holding the current loan, but if the borrower's going to get a new AC loan please refinance the whole thing, and I'll have another underwriting fee for underwriting that one too please". An additional loan of only £600k could presumably be covered entirely by the QAA, presumably pushing the traditional underwriters out of the picture entirely. An interesting possibility. If AC can get a few more loans like the one expected to draw down today written, and can retain pieces of those for the QAA, then they'll be able to continue to increase the investment limits on the QAA and it won't be long before they can tell their underwriters where to go. A £3.9M loan may be beyond their internal underwriting capability now, but in a few months' time... Is it even AC's intention to be underwriting loans using the QAA? It's very risky for them. How about if in the weeks leading up to drawdown there is a drain in excess cash in the QAA so there isn't enough cash to draw the loan? Even worse, do they want a large concentration in one loan..what if it defaults before the QAA holding is reduced? Then the QAA will be jammed with angry investors unable to withdraw their cash. The loan doesn't even need to default..what if there is a large amount of withdrawals from the QAA soon after drawdown which the QAA can't meet? There are all sorts of scenarios which could play out badly if they go down this route.
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bg
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Post by bg on Dec 11, 2015 13:23:08 GMT
Another thought about the vote to refuse a second charge - maybe those who voted that way had as their preferred option a complete refinance of the entire loan amount? AC would presumably be in a position to determine whether the vote against was from investors who did so for sound and well thought-out reasons, or those who got confused by the question. I have a smallish holding in this loan but with no real desire to increase it. I didn't vote on this proposal. I would like to see more loans through the platform but as a current holder of the loan I can see that adding a second charge increases the chances of a forced sale of the security by the second charge holder. Any sale of the asset at a distressed price increases the chance of me losing money. That's probably why so many people voted against.
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Dec 11, 2015 13:25:15 GMT
I didn't vote on this proposal. I would like to see more loans through the platform but as a current holder of the loan I can see that adding a second charge increases the chances of a forced sale of the security by the second charge holder. Any sale of the asset at a distressed price increases the chance of me losing money. The mind boggles at a possible scenario where a second charge holder might force a sale at a price that puts them out of the money completely (not even sufficient funds to repay the first charge holder).
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