Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Oct 23, 2019 17:11:00 GMT
By all means set up a group and do it formally and have a consensus. Collectively you then might have some weight and be able to act as representatives rather than Admin. trying to address thousands of small angry investors.
Hundreds or thousands of emails have less impact than a single petition or request signed by the same people. IMO
I appreciate your point of view, but you need sufficient clear demand from the investors to get the Creditors Meeting set up. That's how it was done with Lendy, through a template letter sent but a decent number of investors. If request is loud enough then it will happen. If only one or two do then it will not. I am happy for anything that results in a quick satisfactory outcome. With over £200k in FS I obviously want any shortfall to be minimised. As with Lendy and Col. the Administration is usually demonised and accused of milking the cash cow 🐄 . I would just say they are proper companies with transparent billing. To mere mortals (not me  ) their fees may seem excessive however usually the are well within the industry standards. Also they do have a duty to get the greatest achievable returns and this may seem unacceptably low in the end by those wishing for higher yet ultimately unachievable return. Like Brexit an reasonable deal is preferable to an unachievable perfect deal. Let’s hope winding up takes less time than a Brexit deal.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 23, 2019 18:01:19 GMT
I think the argument was that investors are creditors as they would have successful claims had the company existed for misselling. Not an argument I really buy though as companies in administration are protected from legal claims. If somebody had an outstanding legal judgement against FS then they would be creditors, but if not I think one would be an investor. However I suspect (although I could be wrong) that creditors are likely to get nothing in administration and would have no right to proceeds from the sale of the loanbook. I would hope (maybe naively) that in the case of a P2P default the administrators would run the company, as required by law, to get the best returns for creditors, but that the FCA will mandate that the loanbook be ringfenced and the proceeds returned to investors (after I am sure the hefty fees of administrators). What I am trying to say is that I suspect one would be better being an investor rather than a creditor. I can't see creditors getting anything, a few computers, leased building....etc. Based on what the LAG has achieved you can be both a creditor and an investor. A creditor by way of the fact that you have a claim against the company (agreed you can't actually take that claim to court), but an investor by way of the direct investment in the loans through FS as an agent. Agree the pay out as a creditor is likely to be zilch but it is a mechanism to get into a position of control and influence over the outcome and control the administration costs. There was a lot of work on this with the LAG and RSM (the administrators in that case) ultimately agreed that some key investors could be elected on the CC. It will be up to the admin to determine whether investors may be considered as creditors. It's not the same as Lendy where model 1 loans meant some investors were also significant creditors, and that was the main reason that investors were elected to the CC, as otherwise they probably couldn't have mustered the votes as all model 2 investors combined were only worth c£10k. In the case of FS, if the admin grant investors creditor status due to contingent liability for a nominal £1, as per Lendy, they will have 3500 votes which I suspect will be insignificant compared to other creditors should they wish to stand. A creditors committee may not necessarily be in investors interest.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Oct 23, 2019 18:42:49 GMT
Can someone explain what has happened to the pre-arranged rundown agreement? It got trumped by insolvency.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Oct 23, 2019 20:31:55 GMT
Is this really the time to bombard administraitors with thousands of similar emails requiring response.
This will only increase their costs and delay their investigations.
They have a Legal duty to Inform and report at specific times.
Let's give them a few weeks to get settled in without having to deal with requests that ultimately will make no diference to the outcome as under FCA rules
and Insolvency requlations their ability to make Ad Hoc policy is restricted.
Yes it is, lessons learnt from Lendy administration, and it worked. They forced the creditors meeting. Won't there automatically be a creditors meeting and a creditors committee if enough creditors vote for one after the first administrators report? As in Col and Ly, not that the CCs seems to have influenced anything (yet). I'm still not sure if all creditors would get more information without a creditors committee so votes would be taken from all creditors rather than a CC hidden behind an NDA.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Oct 23, 2019 20:46:57 GMT
And the outcome of that meeting that made any difference other than satisfy need to complain was what ?
Most here are investors not creditors with different rights
I think the argument was that investors are creditors as they would have successful claims had the company existed for misselling. Not an argument I really buy though as companies in administration are protected from legal claims. If somebody had an outstanding legal judgement against FS then they would be creditors, but if not I think one would be an investor. Companies in administration are protected from legal action from third-parties while they are in administration but creditors can still file claims. In fact anyone who believes they may have a claim against a firm in administration needs to be a creditor in order to pursue it and potentially get money from the assets of the company further down the line. If you believe you may have suffered financial loss due to negligence, malfeasance or breach of agency/trust at the hands of FS and therefore seek damages or compensation over and above what you're going to get back from your loan recoveries then you'll want to be treated as a creditor in order to file a potential claim. Otherwise you'll get what you get back from your loans and that'll be your lot.
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Oct 23, 2019 21:28:57 GMT
I think the argument was that investors are creditors as they would have successful claims had the company existed for misselling. Not an argument I really buy though as companies in administration are protected from legal claims. If somebody had an outstanding legal judgement against FS then they would be creditors, but if not I think one would be an investor. Companies in administration are protected from legal action from third-parties while they are in administration but creditors can still file claims. In fact anyone who believes they may have a claim against a firm in administration needs to be a creditor in order to pursue it and potentially get money from the assets of the company further down the line. If you believe you may have suffered financial loss due to negligence, malfeasance or breach of agency/trust at the hands of FS and therefore seek damages or compensation over and above what you're going to get back from your loan recoveries then you'll want to be treated as a creditor in order to file a potential claim. Otherwise you'll get what you get back from your loans and that'll be your lot. "If you believe you may have suffered financial loss due to negligence, malfeasance or breach of agency/trust at the hands of FS and therefore seek damages or compensation over and above what you're going to get back from your loan recoveries then you'll want to be treated as a creditor in order to file a potential claim. Otherwise you'll get what you get back from your loans and that'll be your lot" Well call me Sherlock and predictable but don't the Art Loans (amongst many others) satisfy that criteria?.
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wuzimu
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Post by wuzimu on Oct 23, 2019 21:58:55 GMT
To respond to some of the points aired on this thread.... - The aim of lenders pressing administrator to also be classed as creditors , is as Garage246 says to get control of the creditors committee and frame the administration for the benefit of lenders
- There is going to be large losses , well over 50% across the loan book! - are there any sources of recovery beyond realization of the security?
- w/ref comments amounting to 'Leave it to the experts - they know best' .. . you must be joking! the experts FS - Lendy - COL - FC look where they got us, the admins have their own agendas, this is a game about changing the odds a little bit in lenders favour. Lenders HAVE to get involved, nobody else will really help us.
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Oct 23, 2019 22:01:30 GMT
I'm out of my depth here (as usual.  ) Presumably you can be a Creditor AND a Lender/Investor? Monetus ? |
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Oct 23, 2019 22:09:59 GMT
I'm out of my depth here (as usual. ) Presumably you can be a Creditor AND a Lender/Investor? @monetus ? Sure! A creditor is simply someone who is owed money or has a claim against someone so you most certainly can be an investor AND a creditor at the same time. From the outset we pushed for RSM to treat all Lendy investors as contingent creditors also for a nominal claim of 1 pound (with the true quantum of each investors claim to be determined at a later date once sufficient evidence was provided). This was on the basis that we believed Lendy Ltd potentially owed all investors a civil liability based on evidence we had seen (breaches of agency/trust or negligence etc) and means that investors now have the right to make potential claims against Lendy Ltd's assets in future.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Oct 23, 2019 22:17:37 GMT
- w/ref comments amounting to 'Leave it to the experts - they know best' .. . you must be joking! the experts FS - Lendy - COL - FC look where they got us, the admins have their own agendas, this is a game about changing the odds a little bit in lenders favour. Lenders HAVE to get involved, nobody else will really help us.
As someone dealing with two different sets of administrators and sitting on two creditors commitees - this 1000%. Administrators and other interested parties most certainly have their own agendas and accountability to investors is crucial if you'd like to see as much of your hard-earned money back as possible.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Oct 23, 2019 22:56:30 GMT
I'm out of my depth here (as usual. ) Presumably you can be a Creditor AND a Lender/Investor? @monetus ? Sure! A creditor is simply someone who is owed money or has a claim against someone so you most certainly can be an investor AND a creditor at the same time. From the outset we pushed for RSM to treat all Lendy investors as contingent creditors also for a nominal claim of 1 pound (with the true quantum of each investors claim to be determined at a later date once sufficient evidence was provided). This was on the basis that we believed Lendy Ltd potentially owed all investors a civil liability based on evidence we had seen (breaches of agency/trust or negligence etc) and means that investors now have the right to make potential claims against Lendy Ltd's assets in future. I can see a claim as a creditor on mismanaged / fraudulent loans but surely the company has no claim to the assets or money once their brokerage is over when the loans are drawn down that collectively belongs to the lenders.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Oct 23, 2019 23:16:55 GMT
Sure! A creditor is simply someone who is owed money or has a claim against someone so you most certainly can be an investor AND a creditor at the same time. From the outset we pushed for RSM to treat all Lendy investors as contingent creditors also for a nominal claim of 1 pound (with the true quantum of each investors claim to be determined at a later date once sufficient evidence was provided). This was on the basis that we believed Lendy Ltd potentially owed all investors a civil liability based on evidence we had seen (breaches of agency/trust or negligence etc) and means that investors now have the right to make potential claims against Lendy Ltd's assets in future. I can see a claim as a creditor on mismanaged / fraudulent loans but surely the company has no claim to the assets or money once their brokerage is over when the loans are drawn down that collectively belongs to the lenders. Not really sure what the question is (or indeed the setup for FS as I've not looked at it properly in all honesty so may be a totally different situation) but with Lendy they were acting as your agent and all of the assets were held on trust in SSSH. Lendy investors will of course receive the proceeds from the trust recoveries that they are entitled to - whatever they may be. However if you have sufficient evidence that Lendy acted in bad faith as your agent on a particular loan (negligence, fraud, mis-selling - whatever) you may also have an additional secondary claim as an unsecured creditor against the assets of Lendy Ltd as a business (who were acting as your agent) as a source of further recovery. Potential sources of money for Lendy Ltd (and your creditor claim) could include assets of the business (offices, cash, anything else), money potentially clawed back from Directors if it can be established something untoward occurred, money potentially clawed back from wider group companies if it can be proven something untoward occurred, legal claims in favour of Lendy Ltd, fees and accrued interest received by Lendy Ltd for servicing loans on behalf of SSSH investors etc. It might be quite a sizeable pot when all is said and done - who knows.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 24, 2019 7:18:54 GMT
'Leave it to the experts - they know best'... . you must be joking! the experts FS - Lendy - COL - FC look where they got us, ... I think the point is that FS, Lendy, Col, FC weren't/ aren't experts and in some cases weren't even marginally competent.
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Post by aquila99 on Oct 24, 2019 13:55:09 GMT
And the outcome of that meeting that made any difference other than satisfy need to complain was what ?
Most here are investors not creditors with different rights
I think the argument was that investors are creditors as they would have successful claims had the company existed for misselling. Not an argument I really buy though as companies in administration are protected from legal claims. If somebody had an outstanding legal judgement against FS then they would be creditors, but if not I think one would be an investor. However I suspect (although I could be wrong) that creditors are likely to get nothing in administration and would have no right to proceeds from the sale of the loanbook. I would hope (maybe naively) that in the case of a P2P default the administrators would run the company, as required by law, to get the best returns for creditors, but that the FCA will mandate that the loanbook be ringfenced and the proceeds returned to investors (after I am sure the hefty fees of administrators). What I am trying to say is that I suspect one would be better being an investor rather than a creditor. I can't see creditors getting anything, a few computers, leased building....etc. The point of becoming a creditor is to be in a position to influence the administrators, via the creditors committee. We can only get into thus position by using a strategy similar to LAG. investors will have no way of achieving this luxury, unless they are also understood to be creditors too. It has worked in LAG with 5 investors on the the CC democratically elected by the aprox 100 present at creditors meeting, most being investors. No likely return for creditors, but the ability to get administrators to process recoveries at best fees rate hopefully .
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Oct 24, 2019 17:40:59 GMT
I think the huge difference in number of investors between Lendy and FS 3500 is not a huge number many of whom would have only relatively small sums each. Unfortunately I fall into the larger sum smaller group. |
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) their fees may seem excessive however usually the are well within the industry standards.
)