Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Jan 15, 2020 1:41:46 GMT
The Green proposed the tax increase to be added to budget or they would vote against whole budget ie. they forced their policy plus others on SNP to get budget through.
When you hold the balance you can get what you want. Example DUP and tory (most of the time)
In minority government situations small parties, eg. Greens, DUP, can indeed get the major party to adopt some policies here and there, but the bulk of the major party's agenda will remain intact. I actually think this is a much more democratic way of governing compared to the autocratic winner-takes-all circumstance of a majority government. I guess you don’t live where a PR parliament is in place. Rarely are there majority governments in PR countries. It only works with multiple nearly equal parties. When only 2 large and Party with <5% can dictate any looney PC policy or hold others to ransom. And why 1 MP in Westminster gets all the attention Ms. Lucas gets is ridiculous. Every independent MP has as much right to speak as she does.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 9:17:45 GMT
In minority government situations small parties, eg. Greens, DUP, can indeed get the major party to adopt some policies here and there, but the bulk of the major party's agenda will remain intact. I actually think this is a much more democratic way of governing compared to the autocratic winner-takes-all circumstance of a majority government. I guess you don’t live where a PR parliament is in place. Rarely are there majority governments in PR countries. It only works with multiple nearly equal parties. When only 2 large and Party with <5% can dictate any looney PC policy or hold others to ransom. And why 1 MP in Westminster gets all the attention Ms. Lucas gets is ridiculous. Every independent MP has as much right to speak as she does. Because nearly a million people voted Green - and your antiquated preferred system means they only have her as an MP representing their views.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 9:24:00 GMT
In minority government situations small parties, eg. Greens, DUP, can indeed get the major party to adopt some policies here and there, but the bulk of the major party's agenda will remain intact. I actually think this is a much more democratic way of governing compared to the autocratic winner-takes-all circumstance of a majority government. I guess you don’t live where a PR parliament is in place. Rarely are there majority governments in PR countries. It only works with multiple nearly equal parties. When only 2 large and Party with <5% can dictate any looney PC policy or hold others to ransom. And why 1 MP in Westminster gets all the attention Ms. Lucas gets is ridiculous. Every independent MP has as much right to speak as she does. Well, everyone in the UK does live in a place where PR is used: for the EU elections. Furthermore, when we in the UK designed electoral systems for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London elections, we used a version of PR - implicit acceptance that it is the preferred system. And strangely, very few people who live in countries where they have a PR system are clamouring to change it to first past the post.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 9:28:22 GMT
The Green proposed the tax increase to be added to budget or they would vote against whole budget ie. they forced their policy plus others on SNP to get budget through.
When you hold the balance you can get what you want. Example DUP and tory (most of the time)
Perfect example that the smaller party does NOT get what it wants - the Tories absolutely shafted the DUP. Just like they shafted the Lib Dems before them. Small parties in coalitions get SOME say - as they should given the fact that many people voted for them. The bigger party gets the vast majority of the say - also as they should.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 15, 2020 10:48:45 GMT
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 12:15:43 GMT
Hmm - not sure I'd hold up Momentum as the exemplary torch bearers for democracy! This is rather like the "elections" in totalitarian regimes where you got one choice on the ballot paper (who then got 99.9% of the vote). Then again I suppose it is always possible the members vote no - which they should IMHO (RLB would be a(nother) disaster)
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 15, 2020 12:19:31 GMT
I guess you don’t live where a PR parliament is in place. Rarely are there majority governments in PR countries. It only works with multiple nearly equal parties. When only 2 large and Party with <5% can dictate any looney PC policy or hold others to ransom. And why 1 MP in Westminster gets all the attention Ms. Lucas gets is ridiculous. Every independent MP has as much right to speak as she does. Because nearly a million people voted Green - and your antiquated preferred system means they only have her as an MP representing their views. 865,000 voted green and got 1 MP 645,000 voted Brexit and got no representation. Personally I feel the BBC etc give too much prominence to Green policies and agenda, 2.7% of the vote yet gets far more than 1/40 of representation on QT etc But 38000 votes get 1 tory MP, 50,000 1 Labour, 334000 1 Lib Dem, 26000 1 SNP, 38000 1 Plaid, obviously this is skewed by SNP only standing in Scotland and PC in wales. PR would give Lib Dems 75 seats, Tories 283, labour 210 ( on national Vote ) but the figures would be affected by Scotland where SNP get 81% of seats with 45% of the Vote tories get 10% with 25% of Vote, Lib Dems get 6.7% with 9.5% and Labour get 2% with 18%, funny that the SNP isn't saying result unfair.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 12:43:02 GMT
Because nearly a million people voted Green - and your antiquated preferred system means they only have her as an MP representing their views. 865,000 voted green and got 1 MP 645,000 voted Brexit and got no representation. Personally I feel the BBC etc give too much prominence to Green policies and agenda, 2.7% of the vote yet gets far more than 1/40 of representation on QT etc But 38000 votes get 1 tory MP, 50,000 1 Labour, 334000 1 Lib Dem, 26000 1 SNP, 38000 1 Plaid, obviously this is skewed by SNP only standing in Scotland and PC in wales. PR would give Lib Dems 75 seats, Tories 283, labour 210 ( on national Vote ) but the figures would be affected by Scotland where SNP get 81% of seats with 45% of the Vote tories get 10% with 25% of Vote, Lib Dems get 6.7% with 9.5% and Labour get 2% with 18%, funny that the SNP isn't saying result unfair. Of course - the winners (Tories, SNP and - historically - Labour) all support the system that gives them disproportionate influence. I agree that Brexit Party/UKIP should have had more seats as well. Regarding representation - egregiously, as of June 2019, the BBC on QT had featured MEPs 50 times since 2010 - of whom 45 were UKIP, 2 Brexit Party and 3 Daniel Hannan (Tory Brexiteer). No anti-Brexit MEP, ever, since 2010.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 15, 2020 12:47:53 GMT
Of course - the winners (Tories, SNP and - historically - Labour) all support the system that gives them disproportionate influence. The SNP is for PR actually. From their constitution: "We will continue to call for the first past the post voting system to be replaced at Westminster with proportional representation, so that every vote and every part of the country counts."
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 12:53:38 GMT
Of course - the winners (Tories, SNP and - historically - Labour) all support the system that gives them disproportionate influence. The SNP is for PR actually. From their constitution: "We will continue to call for the first past the post voting system to be replaced at Westminster with proportional representation, so that every vote and every part of the country counts." Good for them Labour soon will be too Which will leave only the Tories. So as soon as they lose (could be a long wait!), we will likely get reform. Unless Labour changes its mind after winning again, as it did last time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_Commission_%28UK%29
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 15, 2020 13:08:51 GMT
Good for them Labour soon will be too Which will leave only the Tories. So as soon as they lose (could be a long wait!), we will likely get reform. Unless Labour changes its mind after winning again, as it did last time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_Commission_%28UK%29Of the Labour candidates, seems like Phillips, Starmer, and Nandy are open to it. Thornberry definitely against. Long-Bailey unknown.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 15, 2020 13:56:45 GMT
Good for them Labour soon will be too Which will leave only the Tories. So as soon as they lose (could be a long wait!), we will likely get reform. Unless Labour changes its mind after winning again, as it did last time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_Commission_%28UK%29Of the Labour candidates, seems like Phillips, Starmer, and Nandy are open to it. Thornberry definitely against. Long-Bailey unknown. Who would the Tories least like to face? (And don't say David Milliband in 2015 please). One of the first three I think. Would be a surprise if one of them doesn't win (obv Starmer the frontrunner, but I wouldn't rule out the other two, especially Phillips - there's something different about her).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 13:59:50 GMT
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 15, 2020 14:06:49 GMT
So Momentum are looking to 'further the democatisation' of the party (whatever that means)
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 15, 2020 14:19:51 GMT
So Momentum are looking to 'further the democatisation' of the party (whatever that means) For me democratisation is the party becoming more democratic ie 1 member 1 vote, rather than the unions tipping in x million votes. I was a NALGO and UNISON member for over 30 years and despite what members in Branches felt the reps for the Branches and the NEC often endorsed policies and people the membership didn't support. The only time I can remember a strike being called, I was after a meeting was hijacked by Social Workers, who then all worked during the strike as it couldn't be allowed to affect clients. Unison has endorsed Stammer I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a member who was asked who they wanted. democratisation on the other hand is one cat picture one vote.
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