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Post by Ace on Jan 2, 2020 19:33:07 GMT
As quite a few people "liked" last year's report, and I enjoyed reading how others got on, here is my new year update. All accounts have been running for between 1 and 2 years except where started. I've removed some duplicated accounts that were ones that I was managing for others. All XIRRs are without referral bonuses and cashbacks unless stated. They also exclude accrued interest unless stated otherwise. | Platform | Account | XIRR to end 2018 | XIRR to end 2019 | Notes |
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| ABLrate | IFISA | 11.24% | 13.00% | One of my favourite platforms. No other platform is as imaginative and dogged at handling problem loans. It has a very good secondary market. Main drawback is still too few unrelated loans. | | Assetz Capital | Standard | 8.30% | 8.95% | I still like this platform. I particularly like being able to sweep uninvested funds to the QA, and being able to create bids without tying up funds. I only use MLA and QA accounts. | | Assetz Capital | IFISA | 8.75% | 9.31% | MLA with QA sweep. | | Assetz Exchange |
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| 4.08% | New in Sep 2019. Taking advantage of generous cashback for a 6 month standing order. | | AxiaFunder | Standard |
| 0% | New in Jan 2019. No losses or gains yet as no cases have completed. | | AxiaFunder | IFISA |
| 0% | New in Jan 2019. No losses or gains yet as no cases have completed. | | Brickowner | | -4.82% | -0.51% | Still not yet in profit as my investments only pay at maturity and none have matured yet. | | British Pearl | |
| 0.07% | New in May 2019. XIRR will be negative/low initially until loan purchase fees are covered by gains. | | CapitalRise | |
| 5.02% | New in Feb 2019. XIRR is understated as loans pay interest at maturity. | | CrowdProperty | IFISA |
| 0.96% | New in Jan 2019, but already one of my favourites. Seems to have exceptionally good DD. Most loans pay interest at maturity, so XIRR is very understated since none of my loans have matured yet. | | Crowdstacker | | 6.89% | 4.99% | Reduced XIRR due to exposure to the A*th*nt*c Al*h**s* loan default. | | Funding Circle | Balanced | 4.82 | 0.39% | The incompetence of this platform is well documented elsewhere. I'm trying to pull out. Only unsellable loans left for me. | | Funding Circle | Balanced IFISA | 6.64% | 3.18% | See above. | | Growth Street | Standard | 5.14% | 4.83% | | | Growth Street | IFISA |
| 5.29% | Opened in July 2019. Includes accrued interest. | | Grupeer | € | 13.45% | 13.69% | I like this platform, but diversification is a big problem made worse by the practice of splitting tranches in to multiple loans. | | Kuflink | Self select | 6.12% | 6.37% | I would have invested more in Kuflink if they had kept their original 20% first loss skin. Without that, rates don't really compete with CrowdProperty, but I'm still adding a bit for diversification. I steer well clear of any 2nd tier and higher loans as the rates are far too low on these. Very good for referral cashbacks. | | Landlord Invest | IFISA |
| 8.98% | New in Feb 2019. | | Lending Works | Classic Growth | 5.45% | 6.08% | I greatly reduced my exposure to this platform as I was annoyed/concerned that they took too long to react to the rapidly shrinking PF issue. | | Lending Works | IFISA Growth | 4.79% | 5.28% | | | LoanPad |
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| 4.95% | New in Sep 2019. Roughly half in Classic and half in Premium. My return is high due to referral interest rate boost. | | Lendy | | 13.49% | 6.72% | I only have a small investment trapped in administration here thanks to the warnings on the forums. I expect to make a large percentage loss, but a very small loss in absolute cash terms. | | Mintos | € | 18.56 | 15.65% | Good return, but it is inflated by early cashback offers that are too complex to remove from XIRR. Now running down as they don't accept new investments from UK investors. | | Mintos | £ | 14.95 | 12.10% | Also inflated by cashback, and also in rundown. | | MoneyThing | Standard | 11.01% | 9.13% | This platform is in an orderly rundown phase. | | MoneyThing | IFISA |
| 10.49% | New in May 2019. This platform is now in an orderly rundown phase. | | Property Partner | | -0.25% | 13.05% | I'm passively withdrawing from this platform as the fees are too high for small investors, but have done very well from the IOW fort loan. | | Proplend | Classic | 6.14% | 6.30% | | | Proplend | IFISA |
| 10.42% | New in Apr 2019. | | Rate Setter | mostly 5 yr | 4.09% | 4.60% | Not keen on this platform. Too much hassle for too little return. Passively withdrawing. | | Robocash | € | 8.36% | 10.99% |
| | Unbolted | Standard | 8.42% | 8.14% | A consistent performer. I like it for diversification into pawn loans. | | Uown | | 5.21% | 5.07% | Potential for higher returns at end of investments. I like Uown, but I seem to be in the minority, so too few investments that take forever to fill. | | Welendus/Fund Ourselves | Investment | 11.16% | 11.29% | I really liked this platform last year, but have now lost all faith in them. I've been trying to withdraw for ages, but it's proving impossible to get my cash out. Expecting losses. | | Welendus/Fund Ourselves | IFISA | 3.52% | 7.42% | See above. | | Zopa | Plus | 5.87% | 5.15% | Feels like the risk v reward balance is too heavily weighted on the risk side. I've reduced my investment here, but now maintaining for diversification. |
My strategy for the last year was ( with how it went in blue): Move as much as possible from non-ISAs to ISAs. (Yes, as much as rules allow) Put this year's ISA allowance in a cash ISA then split it into multiple IFISAs in the new tax year. (Yes) Try to raise my capital weighted average XIRR from its current value of 7.49% while maintaining diversification. (Failed, due to an altered strategy. My capital weighted average XIRR dropped to 6.64% because: a) I moved significant sums from my FSCS protected cash reserves to lower risk P2P platforms to increase my overall return, though I still have plenty of FSCS protected reserves. b) I've invested some recently inherited cash in some riskier/high rate P2P loans that generally don't pay interest/profits until maturity) Limit any single investment to 1% of my p2p portfolio (try to limit loans to any one individual to 1%). I need to address some "issues" here. (On going) Keep a single platform limit of 20% of p2p portfolio. (Yes) Liquidate underperforming platforms and non ISA wrapped investments as and when cash is required. (Lendy, Zopa, RS and FC will probably be the first to go). (On going) Try some new IFISA platforms for fun/potential (CrowdProperty, Landlordinvest, Assetz Exchange and CapitalRise are on the cards. I'm also tempted to try AxiaFunder). (Yes) Keep reading P2PIF to try and stay ahead of the curve. (Yes for reading, not sure about staying ahead; time will tell).
My strategy for 2020: Maintain a large float in lower rate, easier access, platforms (mainly LP and GS, but also LI, LW and Z to a lesser extent) and use to fund higher rate loans as ones I like become available. In future I should be able to reduce the need for easy access accounts as I build up a larger number of higher paying loans with several maturing each month (I'll also maintain at least a year's living expenses in FSCS protected accounts). Maintain a number of rolling withdraw requests in Loanpad. Consider doing the same with AC access accounts if their manual rates continue to fall. Take advantage of cashback offers, but don't be blinded by them. Try not to be tempted by new platforms (I have too many already, but a few are in wind-down). Reinvest maturing loans if cash is not needed. Keep reading P2PIF and exit platforms earlier rather than later if it looks like they're in trouble (I could and should have exited FC and FO earlier). Good luck in 2020 everyone. |
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jan 2, 2020 23:48:53 GMT
Thanks Ace , I would like to share some of mine (UK platforms). I don't include accrued interest for XIRR calculation. Platforms such as AC, Loanpad, growth street & ratesetter are not included due to "simplicity" in the products. | Platform | Account | XIRR | XIRR (including bonus) | Notes |
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| ABLrate | Standard | 12.86% | 12.86% | Average loan term 32 months, low defaults according to the "stats", Instant returns are great. Some loans on the platform are not performing. Liquidity is instant for performing loans. Loans can be sold with premium / discount. | | Archover | Standard
| 7.14% | 7.14%
| All my loan repayments on time. Majority of my loans are redeemed | | Lending Works | Standard | 6.04% | 7.29% | Easy black box account. Accept debit card and option to withdraw automatically every week. Good loan liquidity. | | Fund Ourselves | Standard | 7.35%
| 11.40% | Provision fund bonus is nice. Past performance was great. Exited | | LendInvest | Standard | 6.52% | 6.52% | It does not accept retail investor. 0 losses yet. Min loan part £100 | | EasyMoney | Standard | 6.03% | 6.03% | The only P2P platoform with extra benefit (discount / giftcards discount / exclusive offers ), good loan liquidity | | Unbolted | Standard | 6.49% | 6.49% | Bullet payment. Most overdue loans are recovered quickly. | | Funding Circle | Non active (Balanced) | 4.8% | 5% | Exited. Happy with positive return. No instant liquidity. | | Funding Circle | Active (Balanced) | 6% | 6% | Reasonable return after 8 years. | | Orca Money | Standard | 5.18% | 13.95% | Nice referral program. New investment return is higher than Ratesetter Access. Great monitor tool. | | Property Partner | Standard | 4.88% | 4.88% | I have exited the equity investment, I only invest in loans (>9%). Balloon payment | | Lending Crowd | Standard | 5.72% | 9.76% | Nice cashback. Growth account (auto-invest) may be better than my self select return. | | Kuflink | Self select | 6.14% | 16.14% | Great referral cashback. Cash drag during reserve phrase. | | JustUS | Standard | 8.94% | 8.94% | Low loan pipeline. Good liquidity so far, 1 working day | | Blend Network | Standard | 10.8% | 10.8% | Bullet payment. Min loan part £1000. | | Relendex | Standard | 7.63% | 7.63% | Interest accrues daily but is paid quarterly in arrears. Min loan part £500. Self select. Average loan term > 16 months. | | Proplend | Standard | 9.36% | 9.36% | Low loan pipeline. Min loan part £1000. |
Check out 2018 performance report here: p2pindependentforum.com/post/307503/threadPlatforms work even better with the "debit card" strategy: p2pindependentforum.com/post/348498/thread |
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Post by Ace on Jan 3, 2020 0:54:57 GMT
OP updated.
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Post by Undecided on Jan 4, 2020 8:55:53 GMT
Wow, how do you guys have time to keep on top of all those platforms.
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Post by Ace on Jan 4, 2020 10:22:56 GMT
Wow, how do you guys have time to keep on top of all those platforms. I retired early. P2P has effectively become a major, profitable, hobby that I really enjoy. It probably soaks up as many hours as my job used to, but can easily fit around all the other things I like to do. Right now I'm catching up with the forum while watching the cricket. There are plenty of platforms that don't require much time to manage.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 4, 2020 12:04:19 GMT
Wow, how do you guys have time to keep on top of all those platforms. I retired early. P2P has effectively become a major, profitable, hobby that I really enjoy. It probably soaks up as many hours as my job used to, but can easily fit around all the other things I like to do. Right now I'm catching up with the forum while watching the cricket. There are plenty of platforms that don't require much time to manage. Profitable? That's a controversial assertion round these parts...
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 4, 2020 14:05:13 GMT
For comparison: my XIRRs for all current IFISAs (bonuses excluded except Lending Crowd; crystallised defaults included & comments on other potential losses)
Assetz Capital 7.12% - Mixture of MLA/90-day/30-day/QAA
PropLend 7.29% - mostly tranche A loans
HNW Lending 7.14%
ABLRate 12.42%
Lending Works 5.03%
Landlord Invest 8.98%
Relendex 6.26%
Archover 6.42%
Crowd2fund 7.52% - (Total capital loss in a few non-performing loans would reduce XIRR to ~6%)
Ratesetter 5.44%
LoanPad 4.81%
Crowd Property 0.71% - Artificially low, few loans at maturity
Unbolted 5.58%
LendaHand 3.43%
Welendus 5.78%
Abundance 4.01% - (but vulnerable to losses in a couple of investments which could result in a negative XIRR)
Growth Street 3.40% - 1 yr ISA minibond - will be topped up at maturity to 5.8%
Property Crowd 8.07%
Basset and Gold 0.00% - 3 yr ISA minibond - will be topped up at maturity to 6.7%
Crowdstacker 4.22% (but vulnerable to losses in AA/BN loans which could result in negative XIRR)
Funding Secure 6.34% - A few residual defaults only (total capital loss in these would reduce XIRR to ~4.5%)
Lending Crowd 3.40% - Combined between Self Select and Growth; includes bonuses
MoneyThing 9.05% - All withdrawn now, nil balance, no defaults
Majority of funds are in the first four
Stocks and Shares ISA XIRR over comparable period since IFISAs started: 6.63% (suffered from home country bias unfortunately, since remedied, and am continuing to drip feed into S&S)
EDIT: That S&S XIRR probably misleading. Better comparison XIRRs are:
Vanguard (Various Global funds) since June 2018: 13.01%
Halifax (UK and Global trackers) since Oct 2017: 6.90%
Fidelity (Various funds, trackers and active) since July 2017: 7.93%
The overall XIRR was reduced by poorer performing SIPPS in UK funds and bonds.
EDIT 2: some comments re potential defaults updated
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 4, 2020 15:32:46 GMT
| Lendy | | 13.49% | 6.72% | I only have a small investment trapped in administration here thanks to the warnings on the forums. I expect to make a large percentage loss, but a very small loss in absolute cash terms. |
For my own accounting purposes, I wrote off 100% of my Lendy investment as soon as it went into administration. Then I record any recoveries once they reach my bank account. So my Lendy return for 2019 is more like -90%. Just to show that different accounting practices can result in different rates.
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Post by Ace on Jan 4, 2020 18:21:10 GMT
I retired early. P2P has effectively become a major, profitable, hobby that I really enjoy. It probably soaks up as many hours as my job used to, but can easily fit around all the other things I like to do. Right now I'm catching up with the forum while watching the cricket. There are plenty of platforms that don't require much time to manage. Profitable? That's a controversial assertion round these parts... I totally agree. I won't be able to be certain I've made a profit until I've withdrawn more than I originally invested. Since I'm still adding to my P2P portfolio it will be a very long time before I'll know for sure. I'm expecting to make a loss on Lendy and FO, though I have no idea how much, but I'm still expecting an overall profit. There are lots of platforms where the majority of loans don't pay profits until maturity, so I lazily assume that future losses will roughly equal accrued profits. There's really no rational justification for this, other than that it's proved to be a rather pessimistic viewpoint so far. I'm in the process of liquidating platforms from a recently deceased relative's accounts and only one of these has suffered a significant reduction in profits during this process (it's FC in case you were wondering). So this gives me some confidence that my paper profits will generally turn out to be real. Despite the above, a major problem with either of my largest 2 platforms (ABLrate and Loanpad), or a similar problem with a combination of several smaller ones, could wipe out all of the profits I've realised so far. Each day that passes increases the interest/profits paid so reduces the chances of this happening.
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Post by Ace on Jan 4, 2020 22:04:26 GMT
Much as I enjoy P2P investing I thought it would be interesting to see what the return from my main S&S investment was for 2019. I got a very pleasant surprise. My Vanguard LS 100 account rose by 20.84%. And all for absolutely zero effort. Wow!!!
If it wasn't for the fun that the P2P rollercoaster brings, given the time that it soaks up, a saner person might well decide to chuck everything in vanguard and get a life.
I obviously can't expect that rate of return to be sustained. I'm expecting (guessing really) that the long term average returns from these two types of investments will be roughly equal. Though given the effort I'm putting in, it would be good if P2P came out slightly on top. My hope is that a bad year in either will be compensated for by the other. Time will tell.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 4, 2020 23:14:19 GMT
Much as I enjoy P2P investing I thought it would be interesting to see what the return from my main S&S investment was for 2019. I got a very pleasant surprise. My Vanguard LS 100 account rose by 20.84%. And all for absolutely zero effort. Wow!!! If it wasn't for the fun that the P2P rollercoaster brings, given the time that it soaks up, a saner person might well decide to chuck everything in vanguard and get a life. I obviously can't expect that rate of return to be sustained. I'm expecting (guessing really) that the long term average returns from these two types of investments will be roughly equal. Though given the effort I'm putting in, it would be good if P2P came out slightly on top. My hope is that a bad year in either will be compensated for by the other. Time will tell. Indeed. Although my largest investment - the Vanguard Global All Cap - which went up 24% in the last 12 months also suffered a drop of 6% in the preceding 12 months. Hence the lower overall XIRR. And £100 at -6% then +24% ends up at £116.56 which equates to 8% pa. One year figures can be misleading!
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ceejay
Posts: 975
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Post by ceejay on Jan 5, 2020 9:29:41 GMT
Much as I enjoy P2P investing I thought it would be interesting to see what the return from my main S&S investment was for 2019. I got a very pleasant surprise. My Vanguard LS 100 account rose by 20.84%. And all for absolutely zero effort. Wow!!! If it wasn't for the fun that the P2P rollercoaster brings, given the time that it soaks up, a saner person might well decide to chuck everything in vanguard and get a life. I obviously can't expect that rate of return to be sustained. I'm expecting (guessing really) that the long term average returns from these two types of investments will be roughly equal. Though given the effort I'm putting in, it would be good if P2P came out slightly on top. My hope is that a bad year in either will be compensated for by the other. Time will tell. My S&S investments are well diversified and so I'm pretty sure I've not got 20% this year, though the other side of that coin is that I've not made big losses in the bad years either. But you make a good point: over the last few years I've spent a lot more time on P2P, which is a much smaller part of my portfolio. It's been highly entertaining, not always in a good way! On reflection I'm now attempting to be the saner person to whom you refer! I'm winding back my P2P investment overall, and limiting it to stuff I can leave more or less on autopilot - no more poring over credit reports and suchlike. As a major bonus, I expect my affairs to be much easier to take over when the Great Liquidator comes calling! Who knows, maybe within the next 10 years my FC account might finally wind up!
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Post by nooneere on Jan 5, 2020 10:20:06 GMT
Much as I enjoy P2P investing I thought it would be interesting to see what the return from my main S&S investment was for 2019. I got a very pleasant surprise. My Vanguard LS 100 account rose by 20.84%. And all for absolutely zero effort. Wow!!! If it wasn't for the fun that the P2P rollercoaster brings, given the time that it soaks up, a saner person might well decide to chuck everything in vanguard and get a life. I obviously can't expect that rate of return to be sustained. I'm expecting (guessing really) that the long term average returns from these two types of investments will be roughly equal. Though given the effort I'm putting in, it would be good if P2P came out slightly on top. My hope is that a bad year in either will be compensated for by the other. Time will tell. You would probably also feel at home in the intermediate territory of direct lending investment trusts paying quarterly dividends, such as RECI (7.1%) or RMDL (6.5%), which have both won AltFi awards.
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Post by Ace on Jan 5, 2020 10:22:31 GMT
Much as I enjoy P2P investing I thought it would be interesting to see what the return from my main S&S investment was for 2019. I got a very pleasant surprise. My Vanguard LS 100 account rose by 20.84%. And all for absolutely zero effort. Wow!!! If it wasn't for the fun that the P2P rollercoaster brings, given the time that it soaks up, a saner person might well decide to chuck everything in vanguard and get a life. I obviously can't expect that rate of return to be sustained. I'm expecting (guessing really) that the long term average returns from these two types of investments will be roughly equal. Though given the effort I'm putting in, it would be good if P2P came out slightly on top. My hope is that a bad year in either will be compensated for by the other. Time will tell. You would probably also feel at home in the intermediate territory of direct lending investment trusts paying quarterly dividends, such as RECI (7.1%) or RMDL (6.5%), which have both won AltFi awards. Thanks, I'll take a look when I get some time.
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Nomad
Member of DD Central
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Post by Nomad on Jan 6, 2020 8:45:19 GMT
Much as I enjoy P2P investing I thought it would be interesting to see what the return from my main S&S investment was for 2019. I got a very pleasant surprise. My Vanguard LS 100 account rose by 20.84%. And all for absolutely zero effort. Wow!!! If it wasn't for the fun that the P2P rollercoaster brings, given the time that it soaks up, a saner person might well decide to chuck everything in vanguard and get a life. I obviously can't expect that rate of return to be sustained. I'm expecting (guessing really) that the long term average returns from these two types of investments will be roughly equal. Though given the effort I'm putting in, it would be good if P2P came out slightly on top. My hope is that a bad year in either will be compensated for by the other. Time will tell. You would probably also feel at home in the intermediate territory of direct lending investment trusts paying quarterly dividends, such as RECI (7.1%) or RMDL (6.5%), which have both won AltFi awards. Both seem very interesting - www.hardmanandco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/RECI-Initiation-28-August-2019-2.pdfrmdl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Hardman-Co-Research-RMDL.pdf
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