r1200gs
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Post by r1200gs on Jan 19, 2020 10:07:10 GMT
Apologies if this has been done to death and I missed it but I have had my head buried in the sand over this pair of disasters including avoiding the forum.
What do I give the accountant here?
Clearly I am looking at massive loses eventually.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Jan 19, 2020 10:41:30 GMT
I don't know about Lendy but FS email a tax statement showing your earnings losses/bad debt which will dwarf your interest.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Jan 19, 2020 11:59:34 GMT
Apologies if this has been done to death and I missed it but I have had my head buried in the sand over this pair of disasters including avoiding the forum. What do I give the accountant here? Clearly I am looking at massive loses eventually. My experience dates back to the demise of Collateral and has expanded to include SS/Ly and (will do) now to include FS. My accountants handle both my personal and my business accounts and are were aware of the P2P activities in both capacities having seen income in earlier years. Personal was straight forward enough (in my situation), but the business side of things warranted some consideration. The suggested and agreed approach was to provide a schedule of outstanding loans, whether defaulted or not and forecast the amounts of interest earned / accrued at the company y/e dates. A provision was then made in the accounts as though the monies were expected to be received; with adjustments in future returns to reflect actual payments received and/or sums written off. It's acknowledged that the reality is likely to be that sums written off will, as you say, eventually(!) exceed the amount of interest 'earned/accrued' and provisioned for, but this approach suited me and my financial position. My accountants suggested that if I did it (broadly speaking) 'the other way around' - ie declared everything as lost and then report what sums were eventually returned - the possibility of HMRC making enquiries would increase and any gains from advantageous tax positioning would be eroded by increased accountancy fees as they responded to those enquiries. No doubt there are several ways to skin this particular cat depending on your circumstances, the amounts involved and - to some extent - risk appetite for HMRC to start asking questions, but once you explain the situation to your accountants, they should be asking you for the information they need, although I suggest a good conversation starter would include the breakdown of loans, sums invested and interest earned / accrued up to the relevant accounting date. Hope that makes sense.
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r1200gs
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Post by r1200gs on Jan 19, 2020 12:10:28 GMT
Thank you, that is helpful. I'll put together more information to take with me to the accountant based on that.
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Post by samford71 on Jan 19, 2020 13:26:13 GMT
I've been considering this issue again (given the time of year) with respect to both Lendy and also Thincats. Both platforms have refused over recent years to consider loans clearly in default, with Administrators appointed, as irrecoverable. Under the legislation for income tax relief, irrecoverable P2P loans may be treated as irrecoverable for the purposes of the relief even if there may be a prospect that the lender could recover some of the amount outstanding.
In prior years, therefore, I've claimed tax relief on loans (on Thincats every year since 15/16) and on Lendy (just 17/18) that neither platform has defined as available for tax relief. Of those three years, the HMRC has asked for me to justify my position on one occasion (15/16 for TC loans) and accepted my reasoning.
For 18/19, I've got small positions in Lendy and Thincats that I think should be treated as irrecoverable. I intend to claim tax-relief for 100% of principal (unless recoveries have been already realised). If the HMRC asks me to justify my position then so be it. I have ample evidence that these loans were clearly in default, the borrower in liquidation and/or administrators appointed by 18/19 and thus irrecoverable. If new recoveries are realised at a later time, I will report those monies for taxation in those later years. My P2P portfolio at this point is very small and it will not generate much in the way of interest for 19/20 or later years, so if I do not claim for 18/19, this tax relief will have to be rolled forward until such a point as I re-enter the P2P loan market in larger size. That event may never occur, so my view is to claim as much now as is possible within the scope of the legislation.
In my view, the opinion of Lendy or TC, both platforms that persistently under-reported defaults and have comprehensively failed lenders, is hardly an opinion that carries any weight.
Edit: As an aside these loans are in the name of my non-working better half and the interest from them pushes her into the 40% tax band. So tax relief acts an implicit 40% recovery on these loans. That may well be better than the actual recovery on these loans.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 19, 2020 16:48:23 GMT
I have similar situations with TC (big time), Lendy and FS. So I have been considering a variation on this topic, to do with potential for also adjusting 17-18 tax year.
I have already decided to treat number of loans as irrecoverable even though not declared by the platforms. I had also done this in 16-17 tax year, but given better reporting by platforms, and lacking the foresight to see the subsequent meltdown that has occurred in places, I "normalised" in the 17-18 tax year so my net position aligned with the platform reports.
I am now facing a situation where although according to the platforms I have a net taxable income of x, I have at least a set of undeclared but decent candidates for treating as irrecoverable amounting to 2x. So I absolutely intend to treat these additional loans as irrrecoverable now. However, it is very unlikely I will have sufficient P2P income in future years, esp. given that further losses cannot be ruled out, to offset when carrying fwd the balance of losses.
I was therefore considering the merits and validity of doing an adjustment to my 17-18 year tax return to further offset, where individual loan circumstances could have merited them being considered irrecoverable in that period.
I believe the 17-18 return can be adjusted up to the end of this years deadline: so Jan 31.
Has anyone had experience of doing this before ?
Also, I'd welcome any thoughts on the validity of doing this for some of the following, which are my main "big hit" losses:
FS: the bloody power boat, promised to be rescued by equity forever and a day.
Lendy:
DFL012 (would need to then incorporate subsequent recovery in 19-20 FY) DFL004 DFL001
TC: basket of NG basket case loans (the administration activities were I think sadly kicked off May 2018, but clearly they had got into big time trouble before then).
Thoughts welcome. Before the clock ticks down to 23:59 31/01/2020
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Post by samford71 on Jan 19, 2020 20:26:15 GMT
bracknellboy . I regularly re-state tax returns after the initial deadline has passed, including re-stating the P2P component. In fact, I restated my partner's tax forms to include additional irrecoverable loans (and thus additional tax relief) for the 17/18 year, with no issues from the HMRC. Now, to be fair, I always tick the box that my partner's tax return is provisional and then make a note of what areas may need to be updated, including P2P. Moreover, I have never updated a tax return this late into the period.
I would imagine if you made such a late revision and that revision was of significant magnitude that this may well trigger the HMRC to ask questions. Nonetheless, if those loans were really irrecoverable for the period 17/18, and you have evidence to that effect, then I don't see why the HMRC would have an issue. The fact you trued up your 17/18 return to match the platform was unnecessary and perhaps inconsistent with you prior behaviour but it's also understandable: you were concerned that not matching the platform's number might itself cause an issue. In hindsight this decision will cost you tax relief which you are legally allowed so I'd restate but with the knowledge that you may need to justify that change to the HMRC. That will require some time and effort but I wouldn't be afraid of the HMRC. I've found them reasonable.
With regard to specific loans
On TC: I'm totally ignoring the TC tax return as I have ... well since 2013 to be honest. For the NG loans, as you say, the admin started in May 18 so I'm claiming 100% for 18/19, with the exception of P***bury where I am claiming for the residual after the distribution as Feb19. I didn't claim anything for NG in 17/18.
On Lendy: for DFL001 I haven't claimed anything. I don't treat it as a Series 36H loan given I assume the counterparty is Lendy. For DFL004, and DFL012, the administration started in FY18/19 so I was going to claim the in that tax year. I have claimed for others that were put into admin in 2017.
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Post by eascogo on Jan 19, 2020 20:40:17 GMT
Apologies if this has been done to death and I missed it but I have had my head buried in the sand over this pair of disasters including avoiding the forum. What do I give the accountant here? Clearly I am looking at massive loses eventually. r1200gs. Just in case this helps this is the kind of (redacted) spreadsheet I provide my accountant to deal with P2P losses vs interest earned.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 19, 2020 20:53:23 GMT
bracknellboy samford71 DFL001 & 2 are model 1 loans so not eligible for relief as neither are A36h. Although there are SSSH charges, these are third party charges AIUI so I believe not valid for loss relief claims. DFL004 & DFL012 both claimable 2018-19
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Post by samford71 on Jan 19, 2020 21:16:39 GMT
bracknellboy samford71 DFL001 & 2 are model 1 loans so not eligible for relief as neither are A36h. Although there are SSSH charges, these are third party charges AIUI so I believe not valid for loss relief claims. DFL004 & DFL012 both claimable 2018-19 I agree re DFL001 and 002. Lenders on those loans are creditors of Lendy. I agree DFL004 and (my error) you are correct also on DFL012. Without checking my spreadsheet, I was confusing DFL012 with DFL005, which I have down as a claim for 19/20. I will edit my above post to correct that.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Jan 20, 2020 11:06:06 GMT
bracknellboy My golden rules for complex tax returns: 1) have a good, simple story for the numbers filed, and 2) give the story with the tax return i.e. provide all reasoning up front. My P2P submissions have never matched platform statements so I file an A4 or so list of notes to substantiate my P2P figures, referencing the previous year's notes as required. I drill down per platform and may e.g. point out that platform X does not give accurate default figures as evidenced by history Y and so I submit my own figures for that platform based on event Z. Personally, I think you've got a decent enough story to justify a retrospective filing, however to submit it as a valid change without raising eyebrows of an HMRC employee - who may be unaware of unfolding shenanigans of the P2P industry -, I'd guess your argument would have to be that the platform figures you had been originally given were false (deliberate or professional incompetence) and that this only became apparent to you now, because of <add your evidence here>, hence resubmitting accurate figures for <previous year>. Not in Lendy, but for FS I think there's more than enough evidence to build a case on this one! Good luck and report back!
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 20, 2020 14:50:44 GMT
Thanks all. I think it is probably a tough call to include any of the Lendy or the TC NG loans in an adjustment of 17-18 return. I certainly intended to include all the NG loans in 18-19 if no case for 17-18.
I think there is a justifiable argument for putting the FS Power Boat into 17/18 adjustment, just wish I had done it at the time. It is of sufficient value to make it worthwhile, and the fact it was due to be paid back in late 2016 is an arguable sufficient cause. The question I will need to ask myself is whether the potential "comeback" in terms of HMRC querying is worth it or not.
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daveb
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Post by daveb on Apr 14, 2020 17:45:33 GMT
As we (1) enter a new tax year and (2) see covid wrecking any small chance there ever was of seeing any value from the properties, is it now reasonable to put the whole lendy loan book (apart from the early loans to lendy itself) down as a loss against other p2p income for 19/20? Then in the event anything is realised tax can be paid in a subsequent year. Can anyone think of a notable excpetion where that would be unreasonable?
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p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Apr 14, 2020 19:04:09 GMT
As we (1) enter a new tax year and (2) see covid wrecking any small chance there ever was of seeing any value from the properties, is it now reasonable to put the whole lendy loan book (apart from the early loans to lendy itself) down as a loss against other p2p income for 19/20? Then in the event anything is realised tax can be paid in a subsequent year. Can anyone think of a notable excpetion where that would be unreasonable? Good question, but I'm not sure how HMRC would perceive marketing the entire loan book for loss relief. I'd be interested to know what people think too?
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Apr 14, 2020 19:39:15 GMT
As we (1) enter a new tax year and (2) see covid wrecking any small chance there ever was of seeing any value from the properties, is it now reasonable to put the whole lendy loan book (apart from the early loans to lendy itself) down as a loss against other p2p income for 19/20? Then in the event anything is realised tax can be paid in a subsequent year. Can anyone think of a notable excpetion where that would be unreasonable? Yes, where the loans don't qualify ie in formal recovery in relation to the borrower. Lendy being in administration doesn't qualify. Loans with question marks PBL103, PBL137, PBL196, PBL197, DFL014, DFL021, DFL029, DFL031, DFL032, DFL034, DFL037 none of which appear to have entered into legal recovery procedures. We are now entering grey areas with some of these where partial repayments have been made via refinances but the platform hasn't written them off but they don't clearly fit into the self-determination rules. Question for the taxman as to what he considers reasonable
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