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Post by pepperpot on Nov 28, 2014 22:27:34 GMT
My guess is that everything for sale gets treated the same by the auto select algorithm. Neither advantaged nor disadvantaged. Time to sell will be down to supply/demand, but, and I don't like this point, you are also at the mercy of u/w movements, something mikes1531 has said a lot about. Effectively smaller lenders are in competition both for buying and selling with larger u/ws. It stunts the platform, which I never thought might get out performed by SS. But with only 41k left to fund on the their latest loan (£1m already funded - no underwriters) which platform are lenders happier with? I still think AC could runaway with the sector, but they need to give lenders what they want. Edit: crossed with mike
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 28, 2014 22:31:13 GMT
Now that the tax position has finally been sorted out and to save me wading through goodness knows how many pages on the GEIA. If I choose to offload my investment - not that I've got any - but where exactly does my selling request go in the 'queue'. If there is already say £500,000 of the Fred WT on the aftermarket, do I go to the back or am I give 'preferential' treatment? If it's the former then I could be waiting a long time. Anyone care to enlighten me on this. The tax position has been only partially sorted out in that interest earned within the GEIA -- gross or net -- does not appear to be included in the reports labelled 'Tax Statement'. As for the 'selling queue', I don't think there is one. AIUI, all units available for sale sit in a 'pool'. When a purchase request comes along, a finger comes out of the sky, points to one of the units available, and it's that unit's lucky moment! In short, it's a random selection from the pool. So it's not quite as bad for new requests as being put to the back of the queue, but if there's £500,000 of the Fred WT on the Aftermarket it could take some time to sell. Thanks mikes1531. Sounds a bit like a fairground then. You put your quid in a machine and it may pick you a bunny or maybe (or is it usually) nothing. Sounds as though if you want or need a quick exit from your GEIA then it's a case of do you feel lucky even though you are on 7% rather than c9.75%. Okay, you've got the PF.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 29, 2014 2:33:56 GMT
The tax position has been only partially sorted out in that interest earned within the GEIA -- gross or net -- does not appear to be included in the reports labelled 'Tax Statement'. As for the 'selling queue', I don't think there is one. AIUI, all units available for sale sit in a 'pool'. When a purchase request comes along, a finger comes out of the sky, points to one of the units available, and it's that unit's lucky moment! In short, it's a random selection from the pool. So it's not quite as bad for new requests as being put to the back of the queue, but if there's £500,000 of the Fred WT on the Aftermarket it could take some time to sell. Thanks mikes1531. Sounds a bit like a fairground then. You put your quid in a machine and it may pick you a bunny or maybe (or is it usually) nothing. Sounds as though if you want or need a quick exit from your GEIA then it's a case of do you feel lucky even though you are on 7% rather than c9.75%. Okay, you've got the PF. There is one joker in the deck, though it went missing when the system was reshuffled -- selling parts at a discount. We've been told that capability would be reinstated at some time, but we haven't been told when that might be. That could potentially help anyone trying to sell from their MLIA, but if there are a number of underwriters also trying to sell they could be offering their parts at a discount as well -- they certainly did under the old system -- and that wouldn't help you unless you're willing to undercut them. With the old system you could see how many units were available at what discounts. There's no similar function in the new system, so that would have to be added as otherwise we'd be in the dark shooting at a moving target. I can't imagine how user discounting of parts for sale in the GEIA could be implemented when you can't even tell which units you have, much less which ones are up for sale.
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Post by batchoy on Nov 29, 2014 7:50:17 GMT
bugs4me, as others have pointed out sales from the GEIA go into the same pool as the MLIA and it is reputedly down to random selection as to when they sell. The problem with the GEIA is that you don't have control over what the GEIA is trying to sell so whilst you might have holding in your GEIA of a sort after loan which would sell instantly the GEIA could be trying to sell a few pence worth of the most unpopular loan on the platform with a pool of several million pounds worth of units up for sale so even with a random selection of parts the odds are stacked against you. With my £20 experiment I have forced my GEIA into the position where it needs to sell £0.27 of my holdings, it is now approaching 48hrs since I put the GEIA in that position and there has been on movement with regards the sale, but given my experience with the London Retail units the MLIA purchased contrary to my pre-upgrade instructions due to all the targets being turned during the upgrade and which I then sold off, it could be a couple of weeks or more before this £0.27 withdrawal instruction is fulfilled
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 29, 2014 10:40:55 GMT
The problem with the GEIA is that you don't have control over what the GEIA is trying to sell And you don't have any control over what it is trying to buy. But isn't that the intention? You deposit your funds and leave it to the system to decide how to invest them. If you want to micro manage then go with the manual system.
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Post by mrclondon on Nov 29, 2014 10:52:48 GMT
The problem with the GEIA is that you don't have control over what the GEIA is trying to sell And you don't have any control over what it is trying to buy. But isn't that the intention? You deposit your funds and leave it to the system to decide how to invest them. If you want to micro manage then go with the manual system. You're right of course, but I think the point batchoy was trying to make is if you are the type of investor AC is trying to attract, they will invest in GEIA on the basis that they could withdraw small amounts as and when needed [c.f. all this nonsense in the press of bank account pensions]. But the GEIA algorithm isn't configured to allow this liquidity as it will follow its own rules on loan distribution when deciding which units to sell.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 29, 2014 11:13:07 GMT
And you don't have any control over what it is trying to buy. But isn't that the intention? You deposit your funds and leave it to the system to decide how to invest them. If you want to micro manage then go with the manual system. You're right of course, but I think the point batchoy was trying to make is if you are the type of investor AC is trying to attract, they will invest in GEIA on the basis that they could withdraw small amounts as and when needed [c.f. all this nonsense in the press of bank account pensions]. But the GEIA algorithm isn't configured to allow this liquidity as it will follow its own rules on loan distribution when deciding which units to sell. So what is the preferred alternative? If you allow it to sell the loans which are in demand, you loose all the best loans and just end up with a portfolio of dros (relatively speaking).
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 29, 2014 12:01:49 GMT
You're right of course, but I think the point batchoy was trying to make is if you are the type of investor AC is trying to attract, they will invest in GEIA on the basis that they could withdraw small amounts as and when needed [c.f. all this nonsense in the press of bank account pensions]. But the GEIA algorithm isn't configured to allow this liquidity as it will follow its own rules on loan distribution when deciding which units to sell. So what is the preferred alternative? If you allow it to sell the loans which are in demand, you loose all the best loans and just end up with a portfolio of dros (relatively speaking). I would have thought that the fundamental point is you shouldn't have control over what it sells. But what is needed is the algorithm for selling needs to be smart (or smarter) so that it takes into account the state of the current aftermarket as well as the rules it may have on portfolio balance / diversification. As long as it doesn't breach the second of those while using the first to intelligently sell to meet your target then everything stays within the 'policy' of the account. Its a very debateable point whether you end up with 'dross' or not, and any way the fundamental premise is that the PF is there as well.
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Post by batchoy on Nov 29, 2014 12:37:50 GMT
You're right of course, but I think the point batchoy was trying to make is if you are the type of investor AC is trying to attract, they will invest in GEIA on the basis that they could withdraw small amounts as and when needed [c.f. all this nonsense in the press of bank account pensions]. But the GEIA algorithm isn't configured to allow this liquidity as it will follow its own rules on loan distribution when deciding which units to sell. So what is the preferred alternative? If you allow it to sell the loans which are in demand, you loose all the best loans and just end up with a portfolio of dros (relatively speaking). I wasn't suggesting we should have control over what was sold, I was simply pointing out that since we have no control over or visibility of what the GEIA is attempting to sell there is no way of judging how long it might take to fulfill a withdrawal request and if the algorithm lacks any intelligence and merely picks at random it could pick the most illiquid loan in the account meaning that instead of the withdrawal request being fulfilled in moments it could take days or weeks based on my personal experience of attempting to sell unpopular loan parts in the MLIA. In an ideal world one would hope that the GEIA would be intelligent enough to pick the most liquid loans within the account whilst staying within the rules relating to the investments held in the account but as sl75 picked up yesterday the GEIA seems to lack even the most basic intelligence as it appears to be unable to match an existing withdrawal request with subsequent new funds from interest and capital repayments and requires lender intervention to cancel and re-raise the withdrawal request.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 29, 2014 12:57:49 GMT
You're right of course, but I think the point batchoy was trying to make is if you are the type of investor AC is trying to attract, they will invest in GEIA on the basis that they could withdraw small amounts as and when needed [c.f. all this nonsense in the press of bank account pensions]. But the GEIA algorithm isn't configured to allow this liquidity as it will follow its own rules on loan distribution when deciding which units to sell. So what is the preferred alternative? If you allow it to sell the loans which are in demand, you loose all the best loans and just end up with a portfolio of dros (relatively speaking). So taking a worst case scenario and in the absence of any confirmation one way or the other from AC. Most WT's are 36 months and the AM seems to be a bit top heavy with them ATM. Leaving the GEIA to do it's own thing, if anyone needed to liquidate you could finish up waiting 3 years until you were able to withdraw your last penny from the account. This being the case and assuming the algorithm isn't that bright, then the GEIA doesn't seem that clever after all. You may as well stay with manual investment, get higher returns (hopefully) albeit without the PF. If the LTV's are realistic then really the PF is an irrelevance IMO.
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 29, 2014 12:58:45 GMT
Hmmm. I think we have a bit of a clash of philosophies over the GEIA. As far as I understand it, it's supposed to be a fund, where you hand over your cash to AC, and they manage it for you, and give you a nearly guaranteed rate of return which would be ~2% less than what could be achieved if you micromanage the investments yourself. As such, someone investing in the GEIA shouldn't really care about the details of which loans the system picks, for purchase or for sale, as long as they get their contracted rate of return. Obviously we want to know that the system is respecting its own stated rules, but the idea of micromanaging exactly which loans you invest in, or which you disinvest from, seems inappropriate for this fund. Lenders who want that flexibility should be using the MIA. I want to invest some funds that require pretty high security in this account, and I'm just waiting for the 20% issue, the tax question, and the apparent tendency to purchase and sell shrapnel, to be sorted out. The idea of the fund is attractive, but the implementation appears still to be buggy. I do think AC have the expertise to sort this out, though, and I think we should give them a bit of space and goodwill to do so!
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 29, 2014 13:18:05 GMT
Hmmm. I think we have a bit of a clash of philosophies over the GEIA. As far as I understand it, it's supposed to be a fund, where you hand over your cash to AC, and they manage it for you, and give you a nearly guaranteed rate of return which would be ~2% less than what could be achieved if you micromanage the investments yourself. As such, someone investing in the GEIA shouldn't really care about the details of which loans the system picks, for purchase or for sale, as long as they get their contracted rate of return. Obviously we want to know that the system is respecting its own stated rules, but the idea of micromanaging exactly which loans you invest in, or which you disinvest from, seems inappropriate for this fund. Lenders who want that flexibility should be using the MIA. I want to invest some funds that require pretty high security in this account, and I'm just waiting for the 20% issue, the tax question, and the apparent tendency to purchase and sell shrapnel, to be sorted out. The idea of the fund is attractive, but the implementation appears still to be buggy. I do think AC have the expertise to sort this out, though, and I think we should give them a bit of space and goodwill to do so! I disagree that there are any clashes of thinking over the GEIA. The idea AIUI is to remove the necessity of any micromanagement of investments which even though the projected 7% is below market rate, is nonetheless an attractive proposition for the passive lender/investor. Whether any particular WT is good or bad I agree is irrelevant. What is important and there doesn't appear to be any alternative clarification from AC is the exit route. IIRC, your units would simply be placed on the AM in the hope that they would be picked up by another lender/investor that wished to purchase them. So you may wait from a few seconds to 36 months to be able to exit cleanly. That's how I understand things ATM but stand to be corrected.
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Post by batchoy on Nov 29, 2014 13:29:52 GMT
Hmmm. I think we have a bit of a clash of philosophies over the GEIA. As far as I understand it, it's supposed to be a fund, where you hand over your cash to AC, and they manage it for you, and give you a nearly guaranteed rate of return which would be ~2% less than what could be achieved if you micromanage the investments yourself. As such, someone investing in the GEIA shouldn't really care about the details of which loans the system picks, for purchase or for sale, as long as they get their contracted rate of return. Obviously we want to know that the system is respecting its own stated rules, but the idea of micromanaging exactly which loans you invest in, or which you disinvest from, seems inappropriate for this fund. Lenders who want that flexibility should be using the MIA. I want to invest some funds that require pretty high security in this account, and I'm just waiting for the 20% issue, the tax question, and the apparent tendency to purchase and sell shrapnel, to be sorted out. The idea of the fund is attractive, but the implementation appears still to be buggy. I do think AC have the expertise to sort this out, though, and I think we should give them a bit of space and goodwill to do so! I disagree that there are any clashes of thinking over the GEIA. The idea AIUI is to remove the necessity of any micromanagement of investments which even though the projected 7% is below market rate, is nonetheless an attractive proposition for the passive lender/investor. Whether any particular WT is good or bad I agree is irrelevant. What is important and there doesn't appear to be any alternative clarification from AC is the exit route. IIRC, your units would simply be placed on the AM in the hope that they would be picked up by another lender/investor that wished to purchase them. So you may wait from a few seconds to 36 months to be able to exit cleanly. That's how I understand things ATM but stand to be corrected. I think you are correct and whilst it is implicit in AC's proposition for the GEIA, to quote: and the timescales for decreasing one's investment should there be a lack of demand are not explicitly stated.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 29, 2014 13:46:54 GMT
<snip> the timescales for decreasing one's investment should there be a lack of demand are not explicitly stated. With other passive type investments, Z, RS, W etc there is an exit strategy albeit at a cost to the lender. Again IIRC, once the 5% PF has been attained, then any excess will automatically go to AC. I would have thought that to get the GEIA flying, assuming it's not doing so already, would be to use these excess funds to create a reserve account to purchase units when investors needed to exit. Of course they could apply a (reasonable) fee for the exit but it would at least go some way to solving this 'exit' question. ATM it all seems a bit wishy washy for my liking especially with the overweight WT's available on the AM. As another poster pointed out, you simply put your available units into the pot and then it's down to a degree of luck as to whether they are picked up or not. I can see this coming back to bite AC hard in the future as only a minority of AC lenders/investors probably read this forum so are not aware of the potential pitfalls. I doubt though that AC will or would be willing to use these excess funds in the way mentioned above.
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Post by batchoy on Nov 29, 2014 14:21:39 GMT
<snip> the timescales for decreasing one's investment should there be a lack of demand are not explicitly stated. With other passive type investments, Z, RS, W etc there is an exit strategy albeit at a cost to the lender. Again IIRC, once the 5% PF has been attained, then any excess will automatically go to AC. I would have thought that to get the GEIA flying, assuming it's not doing so already, would be to use these excess funds to create a reserve account to purchase units when investors needed to exit. Of course they could apply a (reasonable) fee for the exit but it would at least go some way to solving this 'exit' question. ATM it all seems a bit wishy washy for my liking especially with the overweight WT's available on the AM. As another poster pointed out, you simply put your available units into the pot and then it's down to a degree of luck as to whether they are picked up or not. I can see this coming back to bite AC hard in the future as only a minority of AC lenders/investors probably read this forum so are not aware of the potential pitfalls. I doubt though that AC will or would be willing to use these excess funds in the way mentioned above. I think you are right, AC need to provide an alternate fast exit strategy even if it is at a cost to the lender since the worst case situation is always going to be the latest maturity date of all the loans invested in at the time of the withdrawal request which typically could be 36 months but could be 60 months if a 60 month WT loan was added to the pot.
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