pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 18, 2014 16:17:07 GMT
...The blurb for the current issue states "7.00% p.a. gross return, capped and protected by a Provision Fund;" which I certainly take to mean that you wont earn more than 7% but you could earn less. The question then being if BoE rates rise and other rates follow suit will AC change the current offer or look to issue a new offering with a different loan pool with higher rates. The blurb also says, among other things: "Minimum borrower loan interest rate of 7% P.A. gross on individual loans Loan interest above the 7% rate, less any contractual fees due to Assetz Capital, will be used to fund the Provision Fund" So the only two things that will lead investors to earn less than 7% are (i) losses not covered by the provision fund and (ii) unavailability of loans meeting the criteria, leaving cash uninvested. One concern with this setup is what happens if the rate on new green loans falls too far from the current 9.5 - 9.75%? If the launch is a success I'm expecting a bit of a drop for wind projects, perhaps to 9%, and I'd expect solar to go at a bit of a discount to wind (say 8%). At which point IMO there would be barely enough going into the provision fund. If rates fell much below that they would have to close the issue and put out a new one with lower rates. In the short term I think this is much more likely than a new issue at higher rates, sadly.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 18, 2014 16:37:14 GMT
...The blurb for the current issue states "7.00% p.a. gross return, capped and protected by a Provision Fund;" which I certainly take to mean that you wont earn more than 7% but you could earn less. The question then being if BoE rates rise and other rates follow suit will AC change the current offer or look to issue a new offering with a different loan pool with higher rates. The blurb also says, among other things: "Minimum borrower loan interest rate of 7% P.A. gross on individual loans Loan interest above the 7% rate, less any contractual fees due to Assetz Capital, will be used to fund the Provision Fund" So the only two things that will lead investors to earn less than 7% are (i) losses not covered by the provision fund and (ii) unavailability of loans meeting the criteria, leaving cash uninvested. One concern with this setup is what happens if the rate on new green loans falls too far from the current 9.5 - 9.75%? If the launch is a success I'm expecting a bit of a drop for wind projects, perhaps to 9%, and I'd expect solar to go at a bit of a discount to wind (say 8%). At which point IMO there would be barely enough going into the provision fund. If rates fell much below that they would have to close the issue and put out a new one with lower rates. In the short term I think this is much more likely than a new issue at higher rates, sadly. So the assumption must be I would have thought that there will not in the early days a great deal going into the PF. Hopefully in this event there would not be a failure for it to be required. As things progress and the PF builds up, then presumably investors will be better protected. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick on this?
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Post by batchoy on Nov 18, 2014 16:42:13 GMT
The blurb also says, among other things: "Minimum borrower loan interest rate of 7% P.A. gross on individual loans Loan interest above the 7% rate, less any contractual fees due to Assetz Capital, will be used to fund the Provision Fund" So the only two things that will lead investors to earn less than 7% are (i) losses not covered by the provision fund and (ii) unavailability of loans meeting the criteria, leaving cash uninvested. One concern with this setup is what happens if the rate on new green loans falls too far from the current 9.5 - 9.75%? If the launch is a success I'm expecting a bit of a drop for wind projects, perhaps to 9%, and I'd expect solar to go at a bit of a discount to wind (say 8%). At which point IMO there would be barely enough going into the provision fund. If rates fell much below that they would have to close the issue and put out a new one with lower rates. In the short term I think this is much more likely than a new issue at higher rates, sadly. So the assumption must be I would have thought that there will not in the early days a great deal going into the PF. Hopefully in this event there would not be a failure for it to be required. As things progress and the PF builds up, then presumably investors will be better protected. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick on this? According to an early post by Chris the PF has been seeded with £1M but it is capped at maximum 5% of the the assets in the issue, so it currently has cover for £20M of investments
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Nov 18, 2014 16:55:54 GMT
According to an early post by Chris the PF has been seeded with £1M but it is capped at maximum 5% of the the assets in the issue, so it currently has cover for £20M of investments I think you may have misread or misinterpreted what he said... it was actually "It's been seeded initially with funds to cover the first £1m of investment into the account with the 5% coverage." Which looks to me like they've seeded it with £50k.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 18, 2014 22:04:55 GMT
One concern with this setup is what happens if the rate on new green loans falls too far from the current 9.5 - 9.75%? If the launch is a success I'm expecting a bit of a drop for wind projects, perhaps to 9%, and I'd expect solar to go at a bit of a discount to wind (say 8%). At which point IMO there would be barely enough going into the provision fund. If rates fell much below that they would have to close the issue and put out a new one with lower rates. In the short term I think this is much more likely than a new issue at higher rates, sadly. The 2.5%-3.0% spread between the GEIA return and the individual WT loan returns has struck a number of people as being unnecessarily high. My own guess for the logic behind that is to build up the PF as quickly as possible, but possibly also in anticipation of lower future returns on any solar loans or lower returns on future WT loans. I'm expecting the latter. There are a couple of WT loans on the Upcoming list and when they arrive this may give us some clues of the trend, but AC must already know it. And AC may have more that haven't progressed far enough to be shown to anyone outside AC. Some people may have been following the WT loan Qs&As closely enough to be aware that some of the current WT projects need to be commissioned pretty soon in order to qualify for higher pre-authorised FIT rates. More recent projects will receive lower FIT rates and that is a long-term trend/expectation. The costs of buying WTs and building and operating the projects might be dropping, but is it coming down fast enough to offset the financial impact of the reducing FIT rates? I don't know, but I suspect not, so it wouldn't surprise me if future WT projects need lower interest rates to be viable, so I'd expect to see lower rates on future WT loans. Whether AC could find investors willing to fund those loans is a good question considering how long it's taking to work down the amount of WT loans on the Aftermarket, but the GEIAs might help in that regard. Since AC probably will be marketing the GEIA to people who wouldn't be interested in MLIAs because of the time required to manage them, they may not think those people will be making the comparisons that we are making. For those people, the question simply is whether a 7% return is enough to make them want to invest. If it is, there's no reason for AC to offer them a higher return. If it turns out that GEIA uptake is disappointing, AC might be forced to close the Series 1 offering and bring out a Series 2 offering at a higher return. Pricing a new product never is easy, and a bit of trial and error often is part of the process.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 18, 2014 22:14:53 GMT
... except that the allocation algorithm as it exists now will not deploy all the funds available! It will be tweaked tomorrow morning to resolve chris: If the algorithm actually was tweaked today, the update hasn't had the desired effect. My GEIA has had 5.7% of its funding sitting idle all day, and there's been no activity whatsoever, despite there being at least half a dozen WT projects with units available on the Aftermarket. Must try harder!
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niceguy37
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Post by niceguy37 on Nov 18, 2014 22:44:20 GMT
One concern with this setup is what happens if the rate on new green loans falls too far from the current 9.5 - 9.75%? If the launch is a success I'm expecting a bit of a drop for wind projects, perhaps to 9%, and I'd expect solar to go at a bit of a discount to wind (say 8%). At which point IMO there would be barely enough going into the provision fund. If rates fell much below that they would have to close the issue and put out a new one with lower rates. In the short term I think this is much more likely than a new issue at higher rates, sadly. The 2.5%-3.0% spread between the GEIA return and the individual WT loan returns has struck a number of people as being unnecessarily high. My own guess for the logic behind that is to build up the PF as quickly as possible, but possibly also in anticipation of lower future returns on any solar loans or lower returns on future WT loans. I'm expecting the latter. There are a couple of WT loans on the Upcoming list and when they arrive this may give us some clues of the trend, but AC must already know it. And AC may have more that haven't progressed far enough to be shown to anyone outside AC. Some people may have been following the WT loan Qs&As closely enough to be aware that some of the current WT projects need to be commissioned pretty soon in order to qualify for higher pre-authorised FIT rates. More recent projects will receive lower FIT rates and that is a long-term trend/expectation. The costs of buying WTs and building and operating the projects might be dropping, but is it coming down fast enough to offset the financial impact of the reducing FIT rates? I don't know, but I suspect not, so it wouldn't surprise me if future WT projects need lower interest rates to be viable, so I'd expect to see lower rates on future WT loans. Whether AC could find investors willing to fund those loans is a good question considering how long it's taking to work down the amount of WT loans on the Aftermarket, but the GEIAs might help in that regard. Since AC probably will be marketing the GEIA to people who wouldn't be interested in MLIAs because of the time required to manage them, they may not think those people will be making the comparisons that we are making. For those people, the question simply is whether a 7% return is enough to make them want to invest. If it is, there's no reason for AC to offer them a higher return. If it turns out that GEIA uptake is disappointing, AC might be forced to close the Series 1 offering and bring out a Series 2 offering at a higher return. Pricing a new product never is easy, and a bit of trial and error often is part of the process. I'm guessing the GEIA will be pitched against RS's 3 and 5 years offerings, which at 7% at present they outperform in headline rates. So once the provision fund looks solid, the GEIA should be attractive competition, especially with the Green label. The other market they might attempt to compete with is Abundance Generation, based on a shorter loan term (generally 3 years versus, AIUI, up to 20 years on AG, and the provision fund. Regarding the completion deadlines to get the FIT, some loans do seem to have fine margins, and I guess a patch of unhelpful weather or some other delay may end up with the provision fund getting it's first test.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 19, 2014 2:17:37 GMT
Regarding the completion deadlines to get the FIT, some loans do seem to have fine margins, and I guess a patch of unhelpful weather or some other delay may end up with the provision fund getting it's first test. AIUI, if the WT commissioning misses the deadline, that just means the project fails to qualify for the FIT that was in effect when the project was approved, and would receive the current FIT rate instead. Since the FIT rates are being reduced gradually rather than radically, that might make a significant dent in the project's profitability but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to put the project into a loss-making situation. As a result, I'd be very surprised if that alone would trigger a failure to repay and a claim against the PF. But that's JMHO, and isn't based on any facts -- and I have been wrong before!
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niceguy37
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Post by niceguy37 on Nov 19, 2014 8:18:46 GMT
Regarding the completion deadlines to get the FIT, some loans do seem to have fine margins, and I guess a patch of unhelpful weather or some other delay may end up with the provision fund getting it's first test. AIUI, if the WT commissioning misses the deadline, that just means the project fails to qualify for the FIT that was in effect when the project was approved, and would receive the current FIT rate instead. Since the FIT rates are being reduced gradually rather than radically, that might make a significant dent in the project's profitability but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to put the project into a loss-making situation. As a result, I'd be very surprised if that alone would trigger a failure to repay and a claim against the PF. But that's JMHO, and isn't based on any facts -- and I have been wrong before! For example if a particular project missed it's deadline and so, for example, it only qualified for 14p/kWh instead of 18p/kWh that would be a drop of 4/18th i.e. 22% of income, which might or might not push the project into a loss. If it were a sizeable developer I suppose they might just take the hit for the sake of their reputation and the prospect of future deals, but a stand-alone project might simply decide to walk away.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Nov 19, 2014 10:50:53 GMT
AIUI, if the WT commissioning misses the deadline, that just means the project fails to qualify for the FIT that was in effect when the project was approved, and would receive the current FIT rate instead. Since the FIT rates are being reduced gradually rather than radically, that might make a significant dent in the project's profitability but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to put the project into a loss-making situation. As a result, I'd be very surprised if that alone would trigger a failure to repay and a claim against the PF. But that's JMHO, and isn't based on any facts -- and I have been wrong before! For example if a particular project missed it's deadline and so, for example, it only qualified for 14p/kWh instead of 18p/kWh that would be a drop of 4/18th i.e. 22% of income, which might or might not push the project into a loss. If it were a sizeable developer I suppose they might just take the hit for the sake of their reputation and the prospect of future deals, but a stand-alone project might simply decide to walk away. I'm not absolutely sure how this would work, but in most case AFAIK a contractor has been brought in to get the work done. If this final step hasn't been completed someone might be liable for litigation. At least that's what I've always thought, but you never know the crucial final step maybe exempt for some reason legal reason.
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sqh
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Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
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Post by sqh on Nov 19, 2014 11:19:22 GMT
For example if a particular project missed it's deadline and so, for example, it only qualified for 14p/kWh instead of 18p/kWh that would be a drop of 4/18th i.e. 22% of income, which might or might not push the project into a loss. If it were a sizeable developer I suppose they might just take the hit for the sake of their reputation and the prospect of future deals, but a stand-alone project might simply decide to walk away. I'm not absolutely sure how this would work, but in most case AFAIK a contractor has been brought in to get the work done. If this final step hasn't been completed someone might be liable for litigation. At least that's what I've always thought, but you never know the crucial final step maybe exempt for some reason legal reason. We might be about to find out. The F******* WT needs to be operational by 21st Nov according to the Valuation Report (CR says 30th Nov). Q&A tab on 6th Nov. We have spoken to the borrower who tells us that although drawdown was delayed, expectation still is that commissioning should happen before the end of November.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Nov 19, 2014 12:02:04 GMT
I'm not absolutely sure how this would work, but in most case AFAIK a contractor has been brought in to get the work done. If this final step hasn't been completed someone might be liable for litigation. At least that's what I've always thought, but you never know the crucial final step maybe exempt for some reason legal reason. We might be about to find out. The F******* WT needs to be operational by 21st Nov according to the Valuation Report (CR says 30th Nov). Q&A tab on 6th Nov. We have spoken to the borrower who tells us that although drawdown was delayed, expectation still is that commissioning should happen before the end of November. I have a mental picture of two guys driving around in a car to the sites in turn, if they spot one getting close to the set date they do some juggling and go straight to the one getting too close for comfort and spend the morning there. In the afternoon they can get back to their original schedule. Obviously this assumes all the spade & spanner work is already done leaving just the final topping off. This is my own private idea.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 19, 2014 23:29:52 GMT
AIUI, if the WT commissioning misses the deadline, that just means the project fails to qualify for the FIT that was in effect when the project was approved, and would receive the current FIT rate instead. Since the FIT rates are being reduced gradually rather than radically, that might make a significant dent in the project's profitability but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to put the project into a loss-making situation. As a result, I'd be very surprised if that alone would trigger a failure to repay and a claim against the PF. But that's JMHO, and isn't based on any facts -- and I have been wrong before! For example if a particular project missed it's deadline and so, for example, it only qualified for 14p/kWh instead of 18p/kWh that would be a drop of 4/18th i.e. 22% of income, which might or might not push the project into a loss. If it were a sizeable developer I suppose they might just take the hit for the sake of their reputation and the prospect of future deals, but a stand-alone project might simply decide to walk away. By the time a project is this close to commissioning, there will be a lot of 'sunk' costs, and the economics of carrying on will almost inevitably be positive. To walk away would be to give up most -- all? -- of the equity in the project, and that would be rather expensive. If the applicable FIT ends up being lower than that used to make the initial valuation, then the actual valuation would be lower than hoped for. However, if the value decrease is in proportion to the income decrease then even a 22% reduction still would leave some positive equity. So carrying on would seem likely to produce a better result than walking away, especially if walking away would mean calling in receivers which would mean an extra layer of costs incurred.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Nov 20, 2014 10:46:29 GMT
For example if a particular project missed it's deadline and so, for example, it only qualified for 14p/kWh instead of 18p/kWh that would be a drop of 4/18th i.e. 22% of income, which might or might not push the project into a loss. If it were a sizeable developer I suppose they might just take the hit for the sake of their reputation and the prospect of future deals, but a stand-alone project might simply decide to walk away. By the time a project is this close to commissioning, there will be a lot of 'sunk' costs, and the economics of carrying on will almost inevitably be positive. To walk away would be to give up most -- all? -- of the equity in the project, and that would be rather expensive. If the applicable FIT ends up being lower than that used to make the initial valuation, then the actual valuation would be lower than hoped for. However, if the value decrease is in proportion to the income decrease then even a 22% reduction still would leave some positive equity. So carrying on would seem likely to produce a better result than walking away, especially if walking away would mean calling in receivers which would mean an extra layer of costs incurred. Another aspect to the points you're both making is that the amount of electricity (or wind) has been know to vary from the estimate by as much as 30%. So hopefully there is room for 'play' built into the figures, in other words a WT that somehow missed it's topping off date might still be profitable even though it only qualified for a lower FIT than planned and another WT that was completed months early might struggle to meet it's expected returns. I must admit I don't know how often this happens...
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niceguy37
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Post by niceguy37 on Nov 20, 2014 12:56:13 GMT
By the time a project is this close to commissioning, there will be a lot of 'sunk' costs, and the economics of carrying on will almost inevitably be positive. To walk away would be to give up most -- all? -- of the equity in the project, and that would be rather expensive. If the applicable FIT ends up being lower than that used to make the initial valuation, then the actual valuation would be lower than hoped for. However, if the value decrease is in proportion to the income decrease then even a 22% reduction still would leave some positive equity. So carrying on would seem likely to produce a better result than walking away, especially if walking away would mean calling in receivers which would mean an extra layer of costs incurred. Another aspect to the points you're both making is that the amount of electricity (or wind) has been know to vary from the estimate by as much as 30%. So hopefully there is room for 'play' built into the figures, in other words a WT that somehow missed it's topping off date might still be profitable even though it only qualified for a lower FIT than planned and another WT that was completed months early might struggle to meet it's expected returns. I must admit I don't know how often this happens... I think profit margins have been very comfortable, with conservative wind estimates used, but as FIT payments steadily decrease these margins will become finer and finer. I wonder why so many of the turbines are refurbished rather than new. Why would a working turbine be dismantled to move it elsewhere if it was still working? Are the newer ones so much bigger and / or more efficient, and if this is the case why not use a new turbine for the loan project rather than the refurbished one? Or is it simply the case of developers getting permission to put up modest wind turbines, then upgrading then for larger ones later without having the same difficulties getting planning permission?
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