mrsb
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Post by mrsb on May 27, 2020 10:18:43 GMT
as somebody who worked paye all his life and now works part time self employed on the edge of the fast food industry, i have to say i am stunned and amazed at the size of the backhand, cash only, multiple till black economy going on. It beggers belief how they get away with it, the missmatch between raw product purchased and declared produced food is silly. I know one shop who refuse to have a till, its just a wooden draw, no legal requirement it would seem to have one. These people will fight to the end of time to keep cash, helps to keep under the vat limit to. ps i am totally legal with tax ect just to stupid and scared to get involved i am informed. Yea - but that cash gets re-spent, so it's only the tax take at that one occurrence of spend that is lost. I suspect that capturing - and taxing - every single transaction in the economy would do it harm - unless the extra tax recovered resulted in substantially lower rates [of taxation] - and that new equilibrium was reached very quickly. What is more scandalous just now - is how much free money is being thrown at us - with zero requirement to prove its needed. But again, a decent proportion of it will come back as tax as it circulates in the money-go-round! But - of even more concern is how much of this money is being shipped abroad by foreign nationals, and how that balances with any govt bung money coming the other way via brits operating abroad. We got a £10K grant because of our biz rates; that money is going to China to buy production machinery; hopefully that'll eventually be a net gain to UK (if we get the work to run the machines) - but initially that's [another] £10K of money, borrowed by the UK, heading abroad. (No commercially sane alternative other then Chinese machines) I suspect that food businesses are the best placed of all for writing-off stock! All retail is an opportunity to swerve taxation.
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alender
Member of DD Central
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Post by alender on May 27, 2020 20:15:54 GMT
as somebody who worked paye all his life and now works part time self employed on the edge of the fast food industry, i have to say i am stunned and amazed at the size of the backhand, cash only, multiple till black economy going on. It beggers belief how they get away with it, the missmatch between raw product purchased and declared produced food is silly. I know one shop who refuse to have a till, its just a wooden draw, no legal requirement it would seem to have one. These people will fight to the end of time to keep cash, helps to keep under the vat limit to. ps i am totally legal with tax ect just to stupid and scared to get involved i am informed. I was in Taiwan some time ago and they solved this problem by making retailers provide you with a receipt which contained a retail lottery number, this number is entered into the Government retail lottery and you can win money so as almost everyone asked for a receipt made it very difficult to hide transactions. I would guess the additional tax take was far more than covered for in the amount paid in prizes.
If only our Government could come up with something as innovative.
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ian
Posts: 342
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Post by ian on May 27, 2020 20:37:45 GMT
as somebody who worked paye all his life and now works part time self employed on the edge of the fast food industry, i have to say i am stunned and amazed at the size of the backhand, cash only, multiple till black economy going on. It beggers belief how they get away with it, the missmatch between raw product purchased and declared produced food is silly. I know one shop who refuse to have a till, its just a wooden draw, no legal requirement it would seem to have one. These people will fight to the end of time to keep cash, helps to keep under the vat limit to. ps i am totally legal with tax ect just to stupid and scared to get involved i am informed. I was in Taiwan some time ago and they solved this problem by making retailers provide you with a receipt which contained a retail lottery number, this number is entered into the Government retail lottery and you can win money so as almost everyone asked for a receipt made it very difficult to hide transactions. I would guess the additional tax take was far more than covered for in the amount paid in prizes.
If only our Government could come up with something as innovative.
Fantastic idea - personally think everyone should be vat registered, that says UBER and Just Eat might be doing a lot of good as regards vat collection from a certain tax dodging section of society
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mrsb
Posts: 196
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Post by mrsb on May 28, 2020 4:58:50 GMT
I was in Taiwan some time ago and they solved this problem by making retailers provide you with a receipt which contained a retail lottery number, this number is entered into the Government retail lottery and you can win money so as almost everyone asked for a receipt made it very difficult to hide transactions. I would guess the additional tax take was far more than covered for in the amount paid in prizes.
If only our Government could come up with something as innovative.
Fantastic idea - personally think everyone should be vat registered, that says UBER and Just Eat might be doing a lot of good as regards vat collection from a certain tax dodging section of society So you're saying that customers of U & JE are all dodgy avoiders of tax - an interesting allegation.
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ian
Posts: 342
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Post by ian on May 28, 2020 7:42:21 GMT
Fantastic idea - personally think everyone should be vat registered, that says UBER and Just Eat might be doing a lot of good as regards vat collection from a certain tax dodging section of society So you're saying that customers of U & JE are all dodgy avoiders of tax - an interesting allegation.  Firstly I could be wrong it is usually the recipients of cash that are guilty of evading tax. I suppose you could launder your money into chicken tikka Masalas & trade them on Seriously one thing Just Eat & Uber have created is a transparent income trail, which makes tax evasion difficult. From conversations with friends in certain areas that deal with Tax returns it is amazing how many private hire taxi driver earn (I think) £8624 - the amount you can earn without pay tax & ni and still qualify for a full pension stamp. These people will be crying poverty when they are in receipt of 80% of that money from the government.
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Mikeme
Member of DD Central
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Post by Mikeme on May 28, 2020 7:44:46 GMT
Fantastic idea - personally think everyone should be vat registered, that says UBER and Just Eat might be doing a lot of good as regards vat collection from a certain tax dodging section of society So you're saying that customers of U & JE are all dodgy avoiders of tax - an interesting allegation. Just a first thought that maybe this should be started on a new thread? I doubt he meant that but the fact is that however we as consumers are frequently buying from people declaring much less than real income. The mention of U and JE are only indications of the type of business where cash is used because margins are generally high. By forcing VAT registration on all self employed even if input/output taxes were not claimed until a threshold was reached would guide towards evading tax. In addition to this many of those people will also claim from our social system. The costs of our current crisis are enormous and will need to be paid.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 28, 2020 9:06:39 GMT
I was in Taiwan some time ago and they solved this problem by making retailers provide you with a receipt which contained a retail lottery number, this number is entered into the Government retail lottery and you can win money so as almost everyone asked for a receipt made it very difficult to hide transactions. I would guess the additional tax take was far more than covered for in the amount paid in prizes.
If only our Government could come up with something as innovative.
Fantastic idea - personally think everyone should be vat registered, that says UBER and Just Eat might be doing a lot of good as regards vat collection from a certain tax dodging section of society Presumably 'everyone' as in 'all businesses'? ('everyone' as in everyone would be costly and kind of self defeating, I should think? ) I used to work at a top 5 financial organisation. Multi-Bn profts, not VAT registered but had to submit VAT returns (IIRC). Really annoying as we had to account for / track some annoyingly awkward amount* and record 'non-recoverable VAT' for the remainder. (* 1.125% rings a bell, which was for something along the lines of recognition for having to do a VAT return and the effort involved. Something like that, anyway. It was annoying, whatever.) Agree the till-receipt-cum-lottery-ticket is a good idea. (And broadly support all measures to deter a 'black economy' but would like to see efforts directed toward the corporate tax avoiders siphoning millions out of the economy, as well as targeting the small fry.)
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Mikeme
Member of DD Central
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Post by Mikeme on May 28, 2020 10:43:55 GMT
Generalisations are generally true so can I as that you don't just knock me down but accept that I am wanting to start a debate. I know I was being simplistic as usual. However the fact remains that the cost are vast and will have to be repaid to the lenders or of course UK decides to default!!!! The country and the world are in a new age. Time maybe for higher taxes for the better off, ID cards to help prevent fraud, crackdown on ALL forms of tax evasion/avoidance, those that can work but won't forced to work or no money, wealth tax ( bet this gets knocked down) ,investment into manufacturing in our own country rather than the quick buck of selling the companies. Means testing is not acceptable so I and my wife get the winter heating allowance and its not even taxable. The new tesst using phone apps are being slammed by the civil libbers but I would sign up without hesitation for the good of all This is not meant to sound extreme left or anti entrepreneurial. |
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on May 28, 2020 11:50:34 GMT
Generalisations are generally true so can I as that you don't just knock me down but accept that I am wanting to start a debate. I know I was being simplistic as usual. However the fact remains that the cost are vast and will have to be repaid to the lenders or of course UK decides to default!!!! The country and the world are in a new age. Time maybe for higher taxes for the better off, ID cards to help prevent fraud, crackdown on ALL forms of tax evasion/avoidance, those that can work but won't forced to work or no money, wealth tax ( bet this gets knocked down) ,investment into manufacturing in our own country rather than the quick buck of selling the companies. Means testing is not acceptable so I and my wife get the winter heating allowance and its not even taxable. The new tesst using phone apps are being slammed by the civil libbers but I would sign up without hesitation for the good of all This is not meant to sound extreme left or anti entrepreneurial. Think you might have failed on that one
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mrsb
Posts: 196
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Post by mrsb on May 28, 2020 12:44:15 GMT
So you're saying that customers of U & JE are all dodgy avoiders of tax - an interesting allegation. Just a first thought that maybe this should be started on a new thread? I doubt he meant that but the fact is that however we as consumers are frequently buying from people declaring much less than real income. The mention of U and JE are only indications of the type of business where cash is used because margins are generally high. By forcing VAT registration on all self employed even if input/output taxes were not claimed until a threshold was reached would guide towards evading tax. In addition to this many of those people will also claim from our social system. The costs of our current crisis are enormous and will need to be paid. I don't see how registering for VAT is an automatic solution for eliminating under declaration of income. In fact - if it was universal - prices paid by consumers would increase by 20% - and the 'reward' for under declaration increased similarly.
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Mikeme
Member of DD Central
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Post by Mikeme on May 28, 2020 14:12:42 GMT
Just a first thought that maybe this should be started on a new thread? I doubt he meant that but the fact is that however we as consumers are frequently buying from people declaring much less than real income. The mention of U and JE are only indications of the type of business where cash is used because margins are generally high. By forcing VAT registration on all self employed even if input/output taxes were not claimed until a threshold was reached would guide towards evading tax. In addition to this many of those people will also claim from our social system. The costs of our current crisis are enormous and will need to be paid. I don't see how registering for VAT is an automatic solution for eliminating under declaration of income. In fact - if it was universal - prices paid by consumers would increase by 20% - and the 'reward' for under declaration increased similarly. I did say that no VAT change until output reaches a threshold. However as suppliers would be raising an invoice to an entity by name tracking of inputs could help in assessing overall income/sales according to the general average for their industry or profession. An example might be the servicing of a taxi and mileage driven or how much coffee has been purchased. For me the costs should be in proportion to wealth. The bigger point is really how is all of this to be paid for?
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 28, 2020 16:24:27 GMT
Generalisations are generally true ... That's true - generally speaking.  The problem with generalisations is that they can be dangerously non-specific. Mention a 'wealth tax' and my immediate thoughts are that to tax people on the way to becoming wealthy and then again when they are wealthy (and having the temerity of staying that way, to boot) is overly punitive. Take away some of the taxes / duties levied on the way to becoming 'wealthy' and it's a different proposition. Last time I looked, there were over 30 taxes / duties from which HMRC generate 'income'. I suspect many of the 'wealthy' will be contributing to most of those already. I'd not be anti a wealth tax as such, but only in the context of a wider tax / duties overhaul.
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