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Post by verunce on Jun 18, 2020 23:57:00 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and to UK P2P investing, although I've been investing in European P2P sites for a bit more than a year (Mintos, Estateguru, Evoestate, etc). I have been doing some research on UK platforms and I've found that interests are slightly lower. However, they seem more regulated than the European ones, and that's what I'm looking for at the moment. I have also read in the forum about recent issues with some P2P companies (Eg: Collateral, Lendy, Fundingsecure) and I have also seen some people here mentioning that they have been withdrawing money from P2P recently. My first question is quite general: is the situation good enough to start investing, or would you advise to hold on? Without considering the answer to my previous question, my research has left me with three platforms that give me a good impression. Please note that I am currently a UK resident but will move back to my home country in the future, and as far as I've seen, this is a limitation for some sites (also I won't be able to use ISAs). Therefore, based on this, the three sites that have caught my attention are: - Kuflink: short term loans (3-12 months), secondary market, low minimum investment (<£20), Skin in the game, 5-7% interest, FCA regulated, Bridge loans (which are supposed to be safer than development loans).
- Assetz Capital: secondary market, low minimum investment (£20), 4-15% interest, FCA regulated, Business loans.
- CrowdProperty: 6-8% interest, FCA regulated, £500 minimum investment (can be split using autoinvest), seems a bit riskier than AC and Kuflink. And the bit I like as well is that their offices are quite close to where I live (random useless fact).
With this information I have the following questions: - If you had to pick a "secure" platform to start investing, would it be Kuflink, Assetz Capital or another one?
- Would you start just with one platform or maybe two?
I think that would be all as a starting point. Any advise will be greatly appreciated  |
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Jun 19, 2020 9:06:41 GMT
Considering new investment in UK P2P?
Some might say "brave".
Others might say "ok, but be cautious".
I currently have a significant sum invested in P2P - but a lot less than I have in S&S! And I am definitely reducing it. My personal view is that there are far too many platforms, and that consolidation and closures were inevitable even before the current situation. With falling returns and possibly increasing defaults, that is only going to get worse.
I think that the future of black box access-type accounts (like Assetz's QAA/30DAA/90DAA or Ratesetter's Access) is very bleak indeed. They will have poor outcomes and will struggle to get new investors and in the end will have to be wound up in one way or another.
On the other hand, individual loan investing will continue - the usual principles of diversification applying. So Assetz's MLA would be an ok place to be. I have no direct experience of the other two you mention so won't comment.
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Post by uksoul on Jun 19, 2020 9:20:59 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and to UK P2P investing, although I've been investing in European P2P sites for a bit more than a year (Mintos, Estateguru, Evoestate, etc). I have been doing some research on UK platforms and I've found that interests are slightly lower. However, they seem more regulated than the European ones, and that's what I'm looking for at the moment. I have also read in the forum about recent issues with some P2P companies (Eg: Collateral, Lendy, Fundingsecure) and I have also seen some people here mentioning that they have been withdrawing money from P2P recently. My first question is quite general: is the situation good enough to start investing, or would you advise to hold on? Without considering the answer to my previous question, my research has left me with three platforms that give me a good impression. Please note that I am currently a UK resident but will move back to my home country in the future, and as far as I've seen, this is a limitation for some sites (also I won't be able to use ISAs). Therefore, based on this, the three sites that have caught my attention are: - Kuflink: short term loans (3-12 months), secondary market, low minimum investment (<£20), Skin in the game, 5-7% interest, FCA regulated, Bridge loans (which are supposed to be safer than development loans).
- Assetz Capital: secondary market, low minimum investment (£20), 4-15% interest, FCA regulated, Business loans.
- CrowdProperty: 6-8% interest, FCA regulated, £500 minimum investment (can be split using autoinvest), seems a bit riskier than AC and Kuflink. And the bit I like as well is that their offices are quite close to where I live (random useless fact).
With this information I have the following questions: - If you had to pick a "secure" platform to start investing, would it be Kuflink, Assetz Capital or another one?
- Would you start just with one platform or maybe two?
I think that would be all as a starting point. Any advise will be greatly appreciated Kuflink was one of 3 platforms i chose to begin with 18mths ago. No issues and do what they say they do. Now they have a compounding interest option so you are able to get upto 7.45 %. There is a promotion this month boosting rates by .25 %. Steady stream of new loans to invest in, active SM and can even invest a couple of quid, less than £20. They have mainly 1st charge loans which is what i only invest in. Diversification is key, 2 to begin with is sensible.
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jonno
Member of DD Central
nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Jun 19, 2020 9:37:38 GMT
I'd agree that it does look a tad brave at this time. However I'm not totally pulling out of P2P and am keeping faith with some platforms. I'm in the three that you mention, but am currently withdrawing from AC due to it's current " difficulties" and I think it would be brave to go in at this time (although there may be bargains to be had once the discounted accounts come into play). I'm holding steady with the other two.
There are two other platforms that I am still interested in and may be worth looking at are Loanpad and Proplend although the latter does have a minimum investment of £1000.
Just my views seeing as you asked but not advice.
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Post by uksoul on Jun 19, 2020 10:33:14 GMT
I'd agree that it does look a tad brave at this time. However I'm not totally pulling out of P2P and am keeping faith with some platforms. I'm in the three that you mention, but am currently withdrawing from AC due to it's current " difficulties" and I think it would be brave to go in at this time (although there may be bargains to be had once the discounted accounts come into play). I'm holding steady with the other two. There are two other platforms that I am still interested in and may be worth looking at are Loanpad and Proplend although the latter does have a minimum investment of £1000. Just my views seeing as you asked but not advice. Im a Proplender and they have been my best performing investment. Loanpad i hear is performing well at this time.
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Post by investor1925 on Jun 19, 2020 10:48:06 GMT
Personally, the only way to make a lot of money from P2P is to take out a large loan (£1Meg+) from a P2P platform, default on the payments, wait till they go into admin, then make the administrators a "full and final offer" of about 60% of the loan.
Simples
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blender
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Post by blender on Jun 19, 2020 11:01:35 GMT
I am over-exposed to p2p, but if I were not and if I had spare cash, then I might chose a platform with un-mediated holding of the loans (true p2p), and with a good secondary market. I would buy carefully only on the SM and at a discount - from people like the actual me, who would rather hold more cash.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jun 19, 2020 11:20:09 GMT
Speaking as someone who had a good (and very fortunate) ride with P2P, I see no incentive whatsoever to invest in P2P in the UK at the moment. Without being too expansionary, P2P has proven a flawed and poorly regulated business model far too exposed to the risks of fraud, mismanagement and incompetence. Some platforms/loans have of course done well, but there have been far far too many that haven't. It's been like picking single numbers on a roulette wheel, earning 6% interest if your number comes up and losing 50-75% of your investment if it doesn't. Oh, and sometime the roulette wheel just collapses before it's even spun and you lose the lot. Turning to the UK, as per the OECD, the UK economy will take the biggest hit in the world due to COVID-19. Further to this, we have further pretty much guaranteed short term economic uncertainty ahead with whatever happens with the Brexit talks (regardless of whether you're a big fan about its long term prospects or not). In my opinion, these two intertwined situations make UK P2P deeply unappealing at present. I'd rather earn 1.16% in NS+I. |
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Post by Ace on Jun 19, 2020 11:50:53 GMT
Hi verunce , here's my opinion on the questions you asked intermingled in blue. It's just an opinion, not advice  Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and to UK P2P investing, although I've been investing in European P2P sites for a bit more than a year (Mintos, Estateguru, Evoestate, etc). I have been doing some research on UK platforms and I've found that interests are slightly lower. However, they seem more regulated than the European ones, and that's what I'm looking for at the moment. I have also read in the forum about recent issues with some P2P companies (Eg: Collateral, Lendy, Fundingsecure) and I have also seen some people here mentioning that they have been withdrawing money from P2P recently. My first question is quite general: is the situation good enough to start investing, or would you advise to hold on? My view is that P2P can form a profitable and sensible part of a diversified portfolio. The platforms you are considering appear to be well managed. I'm still reinvesting in all 3 and have recently added funds to CP.Without considering the answer to my previous question, my research has left me with three platforms that give me a good impression. Please note that I am currently a UK resident but will move back to my home country in the future, and as far as I've seen, this is a limitation for some sites (also I won't be able to use ISAs). Therefore, based on this, the three sites that have caught my attention are: - Kuflink: short term loans (3-12 months), secondary market, low minimum investment (<£20), Skin in the game, 5-7% interest, FCA regulated, Bridge loans (which are supposed to be safer than development loans). I'd stick to first charge loans here, and be particularly careful to avoid tiered loans except for the 1st tier (higher tiered loans are particularly poorly priced IMO). It annoys me that I can't use self select in Kuflink's ISA, but not a problem for you.
- Assetz Capital: secondary market, low minimum investment (£20), 4-15% interest, FCA regulated, Business loans. Stick to MLA.
- CrowdProperty: 6-8% interest, FCA regulated, £500 minimum investment (can be split using autoinvest), seems a bit riskier than AC and Kuflink. And the bit I like as well is that their offices are quite close to where I live (random useless fact). I don't agree that CP are higher risk. In my opinion they are a lower risk than the other two. Fewer of the loans I've invested in with CP have experienced "difficulties" than the others. I believe that CP's DD is superior to the others, but perhaps I'm just being persuaded by their hype.
[/font][/ul] With this information I have the following questions: - If you had to pick a "secure" platform to start investing, would it be Kuflink, Assetz Capital or another one? For me it would be Loanpad. They have far lower LTVs; currently averaging 25% LTV, with a max allowed off 50%. The rates are commensurately lower though. One concern with LP is that all of their loans are managed by a single lending partner, so a possible single point of failure. It doesn't concern me enough not to invest a considerable sum. Second place for security would be CP, IMO.
- Would you start just with one platform or maybe two? I like to diversify, so I'd choose as many as you're happy to manage.
I think that would be all as a starting point. Any advise will be greatly appreciated Keep reading the forum. You'll soon learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. Many may consider this as chaff!
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jun 19, 2020 12:27:46 GMT
Just a candid opinion from the team. |
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Jun 19, 2020 12:42:48 GMT
Just a candid opinion from the team.Reads more like a candied opinion to me!
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james100
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Post by james100 on Jun 19, 2020 12:48:56 GMT
verunce As you will have picked up, there are multiple layers of risk (fraud, incompetence, asset "volatility"*) at borrower, platform, regulatory authority, valuer, individual investment level to be aware of and manage. There factors are not always visible and can be significant. The industry is not currently effectively regulated to a professional degree IMHO. That said, as part of a diversified portfolio it wan still potentially be worthwhile if you have sufficient time to deploy on due diligence (or happy to small amounts over a very large number of loans, borrowers & platforms). When a loan defaults or a platform goes into administration, your money can be tied up for several years. You mention a return to a home country which I assume is not in GBP...from an investment perspective you are adding in yet another layer of risk (foreign currency versus your spending currency). Fine if you are deliberately keeping a GBP portfolio but a messy Brexit is on the horizon and I would not be betting on GBP being the same level as today in +1 year and that's on top of the likely impact of economic effects on asset values. Have you looked at Ablrate? * inc whether the asset was ever taken as security in the first place; whether the asset accepted as security was actually owned by the borrower; whether the asset value was correctly assessed; whether the asset ever in fact existed at all....in addition to whether the asset value varies with economic factors etc.
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Post by verunce on Jun 19, 2020 15:06:45 GMT
Thanks very much for all the feedback. Those that recommend Proplend and Loanpad, I already had a look at them and it seems you need to be a UK resident to invest, so it's a no for me I'm afraid. Ace, I said that CP seems a bot more risky than the other two because that's what I've seen in a few reviews I've checked. The difference between CP and the other two was like 4/10 against 3/10, so practically the same. james100, r00lish67, I get the clear message that circumstances and current regulations are probably not the best to start investing in P2P. I definitely had the intention to keep some GBP, but after giving it a thought, it might be better if I leave them in a savings account (I'm currently using Raisin, but NS+I also look interesting). I completely agree that on top of COVID, Brexit adds even more uncertainty. I'd like to convert most of my GBP to Euros and can't find a good time to do it. Last time I converted some the change was 1.14€, and it's been dropping since then... Considering your advise, I'll wait to see how things develop, since this investment wasn't a priority for me. As I said, P2P is already present in my investment portfolio, so I'm kind of covered in that sense. I had the impression that UK P2P sites were substantially more secure than European ones (and that's what I was looking for), but it looks like they are quite similar from what you guys have mentioned. Again, thanks very much for your advise. |
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jun 19, 2020 15:12:09 GMT
Thanks very much for all the feedback. Those that recommend Proplend and Loanpad, I already had a look at them and it seems you need to be a UK resident to invest, so it's a no for me I'm afraid. Ace , I said that CP seems a bot more risky than the other two because that's what I've seen in a few reviews I've checked. The difference between CP and the other two was like 4/10 against 3/10, so practically the same. james100 , r00lish67 , I get the clear message that circumstances and current regulations are probably not the best to start investing in P2P. I definitely had the intention to keep some GBP, but after giving it a thought, it might be better if I leave them in a savings account (I'm currently using Raisin, but NS+I also look interesting). I completely agree that on top of COVID, Brexit adds even more uncertainty. I'd like to convert most of my GBP to Euros and can't find a good time to do it. Last time I converted some the change was 1.14€, and it's been dropping since then... Considering your advise, I'll wait to see how things develop, since this investment wasn't a priority for me. As I said, P2P is already present in my investment portfolio, so I'm kind of covered in that sense. I had the impression that UK P2P sites were substantially more secure than European ones (and that's what I was looking for), but it looks like they are quite similar from what you guys have mentioned. Well, the UK is pretty secure.... compared to Estonian P2P  With you on the Euro front. With interest rates circling the drain, having some Euros as diversification seems pretty appealing, and can be stored nicely with FSCS on Starling. I'm hoping there will be a short term GBPEUR bump if Boris decides it's politically expedient to agree a deal or at least to seem to want to. More hope than expectation at the moment though! <cough> "oven ready" < cough>
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 20, 2020 11:33:49 GMT
So I've lost money in L, FS and COL and made money in others - notably BC.
I've no idea whether our regulator, the FCA, is better than the equivalent in Estonia - god help them if its worse.
In the case of COL, we are now 2 years and 4 months since it collapsed. The administration industry has only yesterday confirmed the total loan exposure of each customer and there are only about 1,000 of us. That is confirmed the amount - no payment in sight for a very long time yet if ever.
IMO the fundamental problem with p2p is that the peers typically have nobody representing them. In any other lender/borrower model, the lender is 100% responsible for checking the borrower prior to making a loan. Who does that in p2p? It varies but usually a "platform" whose model is NOT to look after lenders.
The obvious "fix" I can see would be for a platform to be a lender in its own right needing to offer say at least 10% in ever loan issued.
Another option might be for the platform to make it crystal clear that does not represent the lenders in any way and all DD must be performed by them. They might even have to state that their interests are more alligned to those of the borrowers than the lenders. That would make p2p niche and possibly not what was intended.
In summary, I wouldn't touch it as it stands.
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