ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Jun 28, 2021 12:06:37 GMT
... As I've said before though I think Cameron and the "high ups" in the EU commission underestimated the feelings of the people of the UK, they thought a few minor tweaks would be enough to appease people when clearly we wanted a more fundamental change.Wanted a change, sure, without having the first idea of what that change might be, not least because the Leave campaigners were very careful never to be specific. Give people who feel that they are in a bad place a big button marked "Change" and of course they'll press it. Bringing together all of the different wants and needs behind that desire for change required statesmanship, which has been singularly lacking from everyone involved.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 28, 2021 12:40:45 GMT
Nissan to create thousands of UK jobs in battery investment
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 28, 2021 12:55:02 GMT
... As I've said before though I think Cameron and the "high ups" in the EU commission underestimated the feelings of the people of the UK, they thought a few minor tweaks would be enough to appease people when clearly we wanted a more fundamental change.Wanted a change, sure, without having the first idea of what that change might be, not least because the Leave campaigners were very careful never to be specific. That's not quite true. They were very specific about many things, including not leaving the SM, "Norway", and £350m/week for the NHS. If only somebody had suggested asking the public after the negotiations... Oh.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 28, 2021 13:03:52 GMT
Jeremy a Marxist anti Semite who IMHO hates all that is good about the UK I doubt that very much.
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starfished
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Post by starfished on Jun 28, 2021 14:01:22 GMT
Jeremy a Marxist anti Semite who IMHO hates all that is good about the UK I doubt that very much. Did I think Jeremy would be an ineffectual leader. Yes. Do I understand, even now, the palpable fear some had of him and what he represented? Especially given the checks and balances we have in place as a country? No. Were the country given a clear choice between Boris' version of Brexit or a hippy socialist who would have to learn the hard way how the world works when people don't like you (a la May). Yes. I've said this before, the country made clear what their highest priority was at the time...
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Jun 28, 2021 14:04:20 GMT
In a desperate attempt to find something that remainers and leavers can agree on, let me make this proposal.
It was a mistake by Cameron to call a referendum on a point of principle without first establishing the likely consequences. I admit that this would have been hard to do, but AFAIK no attempt was made either to get an independent unbiased assessment by a qualified body, or to negotiate on a "what if" basis with the EU. This allowed both camps to make their own predictions which obviously were the most favourable to their point of view. It is hardly surprising that both side's predictions have proved wide of the mark.
Now we seem to have a Scottish referendum looming. As things stand if there is one on the point of principle we will make the same mistake again. There is also the consideration that many Scots will say they want independence providing that they can't have it (the teenager syndrome). In the case of Brexit some have suggested a confirmatory referendum after withdrawal terms were agreed. However this would not work as the EU would have had no incentive to offer decent terms in those conditions. So for Scotland I propose a joint working party from top universities in England and Scotland to forecast the likely outcome of a Scexit.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 28, 2021 14:35:09 GMT
Jeremy a Marxist anti Semite who IMHO hates all that is good about the UK I doubt that very much. SO accepting Momentum Supporters standing behind him with Placards saying "for the many not the Jew" isn't anti semitic his comments that lead to his suspension as a member of the party aren't antisemitic. The fact that leading Jewish MPs left labour to form an independent group because of the poor handling of complaints of antisemitism by the party tells me the leadership is antisemitic
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 28, 2021 14:49:24 GMT
SO accepting Momentum Supporters standing behind him with Placards saying "for the many not the Jew" isn't anti semitic his comments that lead to his suspension as a member of the party aren't antisemitic. The fact that leading Jewish MPs left labour to form an independent group because of the poor handling of complaints of antisemitism by the party tells me the leadership is antisemitic And the current leader doesn't appear to be doing a lot about it.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 28, 2021 15:22:51 GMT
[...] Remember - only 37.5% of the electorate in 2016 actually wanted Brexit enough to get off their arses and put an X in a box. The other 62.5% ranged from quite content to stay in to actively wanting to. It's easy to twist these numbers to your own point of view. We can equally well interpret that the EU was so unappealing to the electorate that, in the biggest vote of their lives, only one third of them (35%) could be bothered to vote to stay in it. The supposed 'benefits' of membership were sufficiently unattractive to the other two thirds (65%) that they either voted actively to leave, or didn't give a toss if we did leave. The fairest interpretation is that neither side can claim "ownership" of the 28% who were too ambivalent (or unable) to vote.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 28, 2021 16:24:04 GMT
[...] Remember - only 37.5% of the electorate in 2016 actually wanted Brexit enough to get off their arses and put an X in a box. The other 62.5% ranged from quite content to stay in to actively wanting to. It's easy to twist these numbers to your own point of view. No twisting. A simple statement of fact. Indeed. Those who did not vote were happy to go with whichever option. However, don't you think making such a major change to every single aspect of the political and economic system of the country, on the basis that just 37.5% of the electorate actively want it is... a tad dodgy? Surely the status quo should be the default option...?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 28, 2021 16:39:41 GMT
SO accepting Momentum Supporters standing behind him with Placards saying "for the many not the Jew" isn't anti semitic Meanwhile, here on planet earth, the reality was that slogan was used by those protesting against alleged anti-semitism: Do I think Corbyn himself has an anti-semitic bone in his body? No. Do I think that some on the left have got a bit over-enthusiastic in their protests against the Israeli government's reprehensible actions against Palestinians, and confused Israeli government policy with Jewish people as a whole? Yes. Do I think Corbyn did enough to root them out? No. Do I think there's rank hypocrisy on the right by making this into a thing? Yes. Do I think large swathes of the Tory party are systemically anti-Islam? Yes. Do I think Corbyn would have made a good PM? No. Do I think OoohJeremyTrouserpress would have been a less-atrocious PM than BJ Piffle? <gibber> How did we get to the point that was a choice?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 28, 2021 16:47:50 GMT
Remember - only 37.5% of the electorate in 2016 actually wanted Brexit enough to get off their arses and put an X in a box. The other 62.5% ranged from quite content to stay in to actively wanting to. And less than 37.5% of the electorate in 2016 actually wanted remain enough to get off their arses and put a X in a box.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Jun 28, 2021 17:07:54 GMT
Do I think OoohJeremyTrouserpress would have been a less-atrocious PM than BJ Piffle? <gibber> How did we get to the point that was a choice? I think he would have been *more* atrocious than BJ. His rhetoric was divisive as the Tories. "For the many not the few" was great in theory until I worked out it meant his brave new world was going to shaft me senseless. Bigger question for me is/are the reasons why Johnson is so far ahead of Starmer today.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 28, 2021 17:53:11 GMT
It's easy to twist these numbers to your own point of view. No twisting. A simple statement of fact. Indeed. Those who did not vote were happy to go with whichever option. However, don't you think making such a major change to every single aspect of the political and economic system of the country, on the basis that just 37.5% of the electorate actively want it is... a tad dodgy? Surely the status quo should be the default option...? What I do find a tad dodgy is all the millions that disappear every year into EU coffers never to be seen again or properly audited and accounted for. And that coincidentally, as one of the EU's official capitals, the average Luxembourger is far more affluent than the average Brit is ever likely to aspire to. It's only a straw poll, but I've driven our cheap old banger an awful lot on French motorways over the past 40 years and we can almost guarantee nowadays that any Luxembourg registered car belting down the outside lane to the sun is invariably a brand new Porsche, Merc or Lexus tank. Used to be the Germans, but nowadays Luxembourg has all the money. The EU has been mightily good to them... I concede there is an argument that the 2016 referendum threshold could have been set to perhaps 60/40 (or 55/45, or whatever), rather than 50/50, as the required mandate to carry through such a major change. Some democratic votes do operate that way and it's slightly surprising HM Gov't didn't do so, just to ensure extra weight of public support behind them should the vote succeed. They may have learned a lesson for the future there.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 28, 2021 18:16:12 GMT
It's like the idiots outside downing street after the last election chanting "not my prime minister" it's democracy put up with it.
We do seem to have imported a lot of political nonsense from the US of A.
We have democrats at the moment wanting to abolish the supermajority ( 60%) required to get some things through, one of the great ironies was those same people were happy to use it to stop Trump yet it's abhorrent when the republicans use it against them
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