michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 25, 2022 12:40:50 GMT
Even today's Guardian prints the REAL reason for the delays at Britain's busiest passenger port on the peak weekend of the year, and it's not the few extra seconds it takes to stamp your passport... " It [Dover] had made nine passport booths available for car numbers with a triage system also prioritising tourists over hauliers. But on Friday only six of those booths were staffed because of a shortage of French passport control officers." Instead of blaming Brexit, Grey should be asking why the French would man only 2/3rds of their booths on the busiest day of the calendar. It seems the French have as much trouble as we do in manning border posts. I can't see how you could prove at this point what is to blame. Certainly it seems likely the release of holiday tension after Covid lockdowns and Brexit have played a role. Does that mean we shouldn't have Brexited? Well its hardly a reason by itself BUT I do blame our government for the lack of planning. They have had 5 years to do something regarding capacity in and around Dover. Single lane roads, not enough booths etc. Maybe even build a new port. They could/should have had better agreements in place with the French - merely paying them time and materials might not have been enough. A better and more robust deal could have been struck. As for the "few seconds" extra. Its a lot more than that. They need to scan your passport and then check you haven't spent more than 90 days in the last 180. Finally they need to find the right page where all the schengen stamps are and stamp in the right place. They likely will pick a few travellers out to check they satisfy the minimum financial requirements etc. All that instead of a quick flash of the passport.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 25, 2022 12:52:24 GMT
Confused ... the French only manned 4 out of 9 booths
Countered with Govt refused to fund increase from 5 to 10.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 25, 2022 12:59:32 GMT
Even today's Guardian prints the REAL reason for the delays at Britain's busiest passenger port on the peak weekend of the year, and it's not the few extra seconds it takes to stamp your passport... " It [Dover] had made nine passport booths available for car numbers with a triage system also prioritising tourists over hauliers. But on Friday only six of those booths were staffed because of a shortage of French passport control officers." Instead of blaming Brexit, Grey should be asking why the French would man only 2/3rds of their booths on the busiest day of the calendar. It seems the French have as much trouble as we do in manning border posts. I can't see how you could prove at this point what is to blame. Certainly it seems likely the release of holiday tension after Covid lockdowns and Brexit have played a role. Does that mean we shouldn't have Brexited? Well its hardly a reason by itself BUT I do blame our government for the lack of planning. They have had 5 years to do something regarding capacity in and around Dover. Single lane roads, not enough booths etc. Maybe even build a new port. They could/should have had better agreements in place with the French - merely paying them time and materials might not have been enough. A better and more robust deal could have been struck. As for the "few seconds" extra. Its a lot more than that. They need to scan your passport and then check you haven't spent more than 90 days in the last 180. Finally they need to find the right page where all the schengen stamps are and stamp in the right place. They likely will pick a few travellers out to check they satisfy the minimum financial requirements etc. All that instead of a quick flash of the passport. One of Grey's points is not that Brexit is solely to blame, but that denying that Brexit plays any part in this (as many leading Brexiteers do) is either delusional or dishonest. Take a fragile, stressed system / process, throw a spanner at it, experience more / worse problems, and then deny that the high velocity spanner could have contributed in any way. Until we accept the causes of some of the problems our country faces (or what contributes to them) we will struggle to understand them. Until we understand them we will struggle to address them. It's really that simple.
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Post by investor1925 on Jul 25, 2022 13:02:26 GMT
It’s not just Dover. We flew to Mykonos last month & had to wait in a queue at arrivals whilst passports were checked & stamped. It didn’t take too long though as there was only about 150 of us. However, the upside to this was that our cases were already on the carousel when we got through so it didn’t actually take us much longer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2022 13:03:05 GMT
Until we accept the causes of some of the problems our country faces (or what contributes to them) we will struggle to understand them. Until we understand them we will struggle to address them. It's really that simple. This. Fixing a problem first requires us to admit that the problem exists and what the causes are. Fixing a problem caused by Brexit first requires Brexiteers to admit that Brexit has caused problems. Pigs will fly first  Far easier to just blame the French for everything as usual
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 25, 2022 13:15:15 GMT
Until we accept the causes of some of the problems our country faces (or what contributes to them) we will struggle to understand them. Until we understand them we will struggle to address them. It's really that simple. This. Fixing a problem first requires us to admit that the problem exists and what the causes are. Fixing a problem caused by Brexit first requires Brexiteers to admit that Brexit has caused problems. Pigs will fly first Far easier to just blame the French for everything as usual Brexit has obviously had a role. IMO, the fix would have been to plan better for it. But if I understand correctly, registerme and yourself are suggesting the solution is to apply for EU membership again?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 25, 2022 13:35:11 GMT
But if I understand correctly, registerme and yourself are suggesting the solution is to apply for EU membership again? No, I'm not. Whilst I wish the UK had voted to remain I accept that it didn't (even if I am infuriated by some of the lies and outlandish promises made by some on the Leave side of the debate). At best such a decision should be a once in a generation type thing. Give it another fifty years or so. But our leadership could do a much better job on regulatory alignment, they could stop damaging the country and its reputation by threatening to tear up the NIP (and if this has costs then so be it, they were obvious ahead of time!!!!), they could try to engage positively with successful European programs like Erasmus and Horizon, they could stop trumpeting pissant little trade deals or "memorandums of understanding" as huge Brexit related wins when in fact the consequences are so marginal they're rounding errors etc etc etc ad bloody infinitum. Currently almost every word out of leading Brexiteer politicians and public commentators is wrong, disingenuous or an outright lie. That is utterly toxic and is doing huge long term damage to this country. Seriously, try and find a comment about Brexit from Johnson Frost, Davis, Rees-Mogg, Baker, Duncan-Smith etc that you can't find fault with. And Labour is almost as much at fault. The problem is that for them to do any of the above they would have to admit that Brexit incurred costs and risks, that potential benefits were minimal at best, that it would never be over (if President Johnson "got Brexit done" why are we still arguing over the NIP?), that the economic case for Brexit was complete twaddle, as was the sovereignty case, and that both Brexit and the country's response to it can't be considered, in the round, as anything other than failures. And if the politicians loose their jobs, or the papers lose readers, GOOD! Then we can move on and try to make the best of this bad situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2022 13:37:25 GMT
Brexit has obviously had a role. IMO, the fix would have been to plan better for it. Plan for what exactly? Soft Brexit? Hard Brexit? Australian Brexit? Norwegian Brexit? Promise fairytale Utopia while moving the goalposts constantly and threatening to tear up existing 'oven-ready' deals Brexit? And how does one plan for future problems when even admitting the problem may occur is tantamount to heresy amongst the true Brexit believers running the country? This is one of my favourite ironies. Brexiteers being unable to admit problems pretty much guarantees the problems will keep occuring.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2022 13:41:44 GMT
I remember when Liz Truss brought home the deal with the Faroe Isles. Much ringing of bells and cheers in the streets. With deals like that surely she is a shoe in?
Let's face it Brexit is going poison UK or English or Little Britain politics for the next 50 years, which is what Farash and his Russian paymasters wanted. Chalk up a Putin win.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jul 25, 2022 14:02:31 GMT
It seems the French have as much trouble as we do in manning border posts. I can't see how you could prove at this point what is to blame. Certainly it seems likely the release of holiday tension after Covid lockdowns and Brexit have played a role. Does that mean we shouldn't have Brexited? Well its hardly a reason by itself BUT I do blame our government for the lack of planning. They have had 5 years to do something regarding capacity in and around Dover. Single lane roads, not enough booths etc. Maybe even build a new port. They could/should have had better agreements in place with the French - merely paying them time and materials might not have been enough. A better and more robust deal could have been struck. As for the "few seconds" extra. Its a lot more than that. They need to scan your passport and then check you haven't spent more than 90 days in the last 180. Finally they need to find the right page where all the schengen stamps are and stamp in the right place. They likely will pick a few travellers out to check they satisfy the minimum financial requirements etc. All that instead of a quick flash of the passport. One of Grey's points is not that Brexit is solely to blame, but that denying that Brexit plays any part in this (as many leading Brexiteers do) is either delusional or dishonest. Take a fragile, stressed system / process, throw a spanner at it, experience more / worse problems, and then deny that the high velocity spanner could have contributed in any way. Until we accept the causes of some of the problems our country faces (or what contributes to them) we will struggle to understand them. Until we understand them we will struggle to address them. It's really that simple. Oh, I'm sure that Brexit plays a part, no doubt about it. The French are sore that we left their club so they'll now have to contribute far more to the EU project. This is just another way they can make their spite felt. It parallels Macron rubbishing the AstraZeneca vaccine to the world... and then trying to steal a shipment for himself when he had the opportunity to block it being received by us.
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michaelc
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Say No To T.D.S.
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Post by michaelc on Jul 25, 2022 15:18:31 GMT
Brexit has obviously had a role. IMO, the fix would have been to plan better for it. Soft Brexit? Hard Brexit? Australian Brexit? Norwegian Brexit? Promise fairytale Utopia while moving the goalposts constantly and threatening to tear up existing 'oven-ready' deals Brexit? And how does one plan for future problems when even admitting the problem may occur is tantamount to heresy amongst the true Brexit believers running the country? This is one of my favourite ironies. Brexiteers being unable to admit problems pretty much guarantees the problems will keep occuring. In this case its already pretty clear what the issue is regarding extra time for passport checks and that certainly could have been planned for but nothing much was done.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jul 25, 2022 15:46:42 GMT
Plan for what exactly? Soft Brexit? Hard Brexit? Australian Brexit? Norwegian Brexit? Promise fairytale Utopia while moving the goalposts constantly and threatening to tear up existing 'oven-ready' deals Brexit? And how does one plan for future problems when even admitting the problem may occur is tantamount to heresy amongst the true Brexit believers running the country? This is one of my favourite ironies. Brexiteers being unable to admit problems pretty much guarantees the problems will keep occuring. In this case its already pretty clear what the issue is regarding extra time for passport checks and that certainly could have been planned for but nothing much was done. Well, Eurotunnel, for example, ensured there were nine booths to cope with the passport bottleneck into France. French passport control only provided the staff for six. UK planning can only take you so far.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 25, 2022 16:07:34 GMT
In this case its already pretty clear what the issue is regarding extra time for passport checks and that certainly could have been planned for but nothing much was done. Well, Eurotunnel, for example, ensured there were nine booths to cope with the passport bottleneck into France. French passport control only provided the staff for six. UK planning can only take you so far. I think that was only for the first morning of chaos. We could have used appropriate carrots/sticks to ensure this didn't happen. The french will care as they have trade and some people going through but clearly it affects us more than them. I was trying to get out of our extreme remainer friends on this board, what they would do now? I suggested rejoin the EU and they don't want that. So what then? Bend over and get the Protocol fixed in the EU's favour? Take part in more European related schemes? Is that going to fix the travel chaos at the ports ?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 25, 2022 16:17:31 GMT
I'm assuming you're referring to me as an "extreme Remainer". I don't think I'm extreme, but yes, I remain angry about Brexit.
Anyway, invest in more infrastructure, hire more (better) people, implement better systems, throttle / prioritise demand (just for laughs I'd suggest that anybody who voted leave should be de-prioritised in favour of those who voted remain). All of which should have been done years ago.
And explain to people that these costs are at least in part the result of Brexit (ie in addition to COVID and general government incompetence).
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Post by moonraker on Jul 25, 2022 16:34:09 GMT
A Polish friend visited me today. She and her husband (a French catering manager) returned home two years ago, renting out their house near Stansted. I regaled her with all the problems facing the UK because of labour shortages. "When are you going to let us back into England," she asked. "We aren't," I said. "We're looking to India and Nigeria for workers."
Which caused her to shake her head in disbelief. Not that the two of them have any particular wish to come back permanently: their son has health issues that are better treated in Poland.
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