mrk
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Post by mrk on Oct 17, 2020 16:37:29 GMT
Going around (not you OP just anyone) saying what we should or could have done is not only pointless but perpetuates the belief that you view that issue as being more important than the democratic process itself. You must accept that decision was carried out in a free and fair national vote otherwise we become like certain other developing nations who have never really experienced democracy and if we end up there, Brexit will seem like a walk in the park. We had these debates too many times before, but that's not how democracy works. If remain had won no doubt leavers would still be banging on about why everything to do with the EU is bad and we should leave etc.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Oct 17, 2020 17:07:01 GMT
At least we're all in practise now, after the covid shutdown we've all changed our shopping habits, learned to use what we can get rather than exactly what we wanted and maybe been a bit more thankful and appreciative of what we actually have.  I don't 'aspire' to rationing, but it actually provided a healthy diet low in red meat and fats, etc. Quite a few have been 'digging for victory' recently (or whatever the covid term is). We grow quite a lot of our own veg anyway (probably more than usual this year!) but It's remarkable how many people have taken up growing some of their own fruit and veg. Nil desperandum. |
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 17, 2020 17:09:48 GMT
It is clearly what many/most people here wanted and it may have been the "wrong" decision but it was what the UK as a whole decided and those that may have a lower IQ than you, a worse education than you or a lower standard of living than you are still people and have the same rights as you do. ("You" being the general case not anyone in particular - we might have used "one" some time ago...) If you're not at all happy then join a movement to bring around another referendum and do a better job of putting your arguments forward and listening to those on t'other side of the table. In my case I made my final in/out decision when our UK managing director of a large corp IT company wrote to everyone suggesting it might be a good idea to vote remain. Going around (not you OP just anyone) saying what we should or could have done is not only pointless but perpetuates the belief that you view that issue as being more important than the democratic process itself. You must accept that decision was carried out in a free and fair national vote otherwise we become like certain other developing nations who have never really experienced democracy and if we end up there, Brexit will seem like a walk in the park. I accept the result of the referendum. I want to know what the second rate hack and his pals are going to do to minimise the problems and mitigate the risks. Because other than concreting over part of Kent they seen to have done sweet FA. I guess they managed to agree to sell some stilton to Japan. There is that.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 17, 2020 17:12:03 GMT
youtu.be/Q-3AgalFEqcMaybe the French fishermen are more worried about the No Deal Brexit. To be honest, EU producers will be more unhappy if Britian stops importing their food.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 17, 2020 17:13:34 GMT
And as a (Norwegian) friend of mine pointed out, it's all going to be the fault of:-
1. Remainers for being bitter and not getting behind Brexit and the government.
2. The EU for not giving the UK what it so obviously deserves.
3. The judiciary for undemocratically undermining the government.
4. MPs for sabotaging the government's well laid plans (hah!).
5. The media for pushing "Project Fear".
6. Space hampsters.
I think it's fair to say it makes me somewhat irate.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Oct 17, 2020 17:34:10 GMT
And as a (Norwegian) friend of mine pointed out, it's all going to be the fault of:- 1. Remainers for being bitter and not getting behind Brexit and the government. 2. The EU for not giving the UK what it so obviously deserves. 3. The judiciary for undemocratically undermining the government. 4. MPs for sabotaging the government's well laid plans (hah!). 5. The media for pushing "Project Fear". 6. Space hampsters. I think it's fair to say it makes me somewhat irate. Also Aussies when people work out what an "Australian-style" trade deal is...and learn that the only successful trade experience Tony Abbott has is boosting the internal raw onion-eating market youtu.be/8tqXSPkDbX4
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 17, 2020 17:50:17 GMT
In the event of a no deal Brexit I wouldn't be suprised if there was some constipation at the ports resulting in delays, so I wouldn't be suprised if we had somethng simailar to the covid situation in March (there was always food on the supermarket shelf, but some times you had to settle for a bag of frozen croquette potatoes instead of aunt Bessie's roast potatoes).
However, lets not forget that BA have their entire 747 fleet parked up (cummulative cargo capacity about 4000t per trip), so it would suprise me if critical medication were in short supply.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Oct 17, 2020 18:00:41 GMT
I guess they managed to agree to sell some stilton to Japan. There is that. By committing to "tougher restrictions on state aid than the ones it is currently offering the EU in the Brexit talks", according to the FT.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Oct 17, 2020 18:35:03 GMT
There's more to life than brie. You might reckon with the healthiest,richest,brightest,successful generation still going strong evolved from that diet. Meat,potatoes and cabbage cut as cake. Boom!
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Post by df on Oct 17, 2020 19:25:28 GMT
And as a (Norwegian) friend of mine pointed out, it's all going to be the fault of:- 1. Remainers for being bitter and not getting behind Brexit and the government. 2. The EU for not giving the UK what it so obviously deserves. 3. The judiciary for undemocratically undermining the government. 4. MPs for sabotaging the government's well laid plans (hah!). 5. The media for pushing "Project Fear". 6. Space hampsters. I think it's fair to say it makes me somewhat irate. He's forgotten the most popular one - "Russian interference".
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2020 7:39:02 GMT
However, lets not forget that BA have their entire 747 fleet parked up (cummulative cargo capacity about 4000t per trip), so it would suprise me if critical medication were in short supply.
The post-Brexit foodchain logistics issues won't be around physical lack of transport capacity. The same number of trucks and ferries will exist to cross the channel.  They'll be around customs-clearing capacity. They'll just be sat in a mahoosive backlog to get off those ferries because of the red tape that simply does not currently exist. The stuff that is air-freighted in will not be able to get through the customs clearance as it has been doing, because of the increased demand for that same customs clearance - but also because of increased red tape for those countries that have gone from having trade deals with an EU-member UK to not having trade deals with a non-EU UK. And air-freighted stuff tends to be short-life... Saying "Ah, but the 1950s were better because..." is complete rose-tinted codswallop. Apart from anything, the population of the country was 35% smaller - not least because people old enough now to remember the 50s simply wouldn't have lived this long back then. Male life expectancy at birth in 1951 was just 66. In 2011, it was 79. For women, it's risen from 71 to 83. Somebody who had reached 75 in 1950 would have been born in 1875... when life expectancy at birth was in the mid 40s. Let's be honest, the main thing that the elderly REALLY had better back then was that they were young then but are now old - and they preferred being young. Everything else is just being whitewashed in that framework. Nobody in their right mind really WANTS to go back to pre-fabs, bombsites, smog, the loathsome social "norms" (the rampant racism shown to the Windrush arrivals, entrenched sexism, strict class division), child mortality rates 10x as high... yet people are seriously suggesting that the massively-restricted-availability, boring, grey, flavourless food was a good thing, simply because we're at risk of going back to it now - simply because of xenophobia...?
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Post by dan1 on Oct 18, 2020 8:14:04 GMT
Two things about this unfolding ****show:
1. I'm not sure that people/businesses have fully grasped that everything will change come 1 Jan 2021 deal or no deal.
2. Who's going to profit financially from this ****show - apart from Tory donors that is? I'm not interested in speculating 'cos I guess it's all baked in but just out of curiosity.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Oct 18, 2020 8:25:11 GMT
It would all be well and good to advocate the positive attributes of self-sufficiency, grit, coping with less etc if it were in service of a greater good.
There was rationing in the war because of an external existential threat that needed staving off.
That we are left with an incredibly lopsided call for coping with less solely in order to promote the agenda of alienating ('freeing'?) ourselves from the European continent at eye-watering financial expense and even higher non-financial cost (e.g the Union, peace in NI, internal social cohesion) is the reason why many people here are so angry about it. I certainly am if I let myself think about it.
Why people are still apologists for the project baffles me. The only even vaguely tenable argument for it was that the dish of democracy must be served. Well, it has, and it has a very funny smell. Yet, we also apparently must not only be served it, but eat it with a big grin on our faces too.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Oct 18, 2020 8:40:40 GMT
However, lets not forget that BA have their entire 747 fleet parked up (cummulative cargo capacity about 4000t per trip), so it would suprise me if critical medication were in short supply.
The post-Brexit foodchain logistics issues won't be around physical lack of transport capacity. The same number of trucks and ferries will exist to cross the channel. They'll be around customs-clearing capacity. They'll just be sat in a mahoosive backlog to get off those ferries because of the red tape that simply does not currently exist. The stuff that is air-freighted in will not be able to get through the customs clearance as it has been doing, because of the increased demand for that same customs clearance - but also because of increased red tape for those countries that have gone from having trade deals with an EU-member UK to not having trade deals with a non-EU UK. And air-freighted stuff tends to be short-life... Saying "Ah, but the 1950s were better because..." is complete rose-tinted codswallop. Apart from anything, the population of the country was 35% smaller - not least because people old enough now to remember the 50s simply wouldn't have lived this long back then. Male life expectancy at birth in 1951 was just 66. In 2011, it was 79. For women, it's risen from 71 to 83. Somebody who had reached 75 in 1950 would have been born in 1875... when life expectancy at birth was in the mid 40s. Let's be honest, the main thing that the elderly REALLY had better back then was that they were young then but are now old - and they preferred being young. Everything else is just being whitewashed in that framework. Nobody in their right mind really WANTS to go back to pre-fabs, bombsites, smog, the loathsome social "norms" (the rampant racism shown to the Windrush arrivals, entrenched sexism, strict class division), child mortality rates 10x as high... yet people are seriously suggesting that the massively-restricted-availability, boring, grey, flavourless food was a good thing, simply because we're at risk of going back to it now - simply because of xenophobia...? The trouble is many people have a terrible diet these days, eating ready prepared food, takeaways, sugary drinks etc, overweight/obese adults and children, childhood (and adult) diabetes on the rise etc. There is masses of good food out there, but the easy tasty stuff full of fat, salt, sugar and additives is what we tend to eat. I don't think anyone is advocating (or expecting) a return to the 50s in terms of food (or anything else on your list), but we could think about using less processed foods for our own health.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Oct 18, 2020 8:45:40 GMT
Two things about this unfolding ****show: 1. I'm not sure that people/businesses have fully grasped that everything will change come 1 Jan 2021 deal or no deal. 2. Who's going to profit financially from this ****show - apart from Tory donors that is? I'm not interested in speculating 'cos I guess it's all baked in but just out of curiosity. I agree, and have been trying to look more at point 1. It seems very difficult to quantify as there are so many things going on at once. With each strand of logistical challenge there comes significant risks of problems occurring, but what is the multiplicative effect of pulling on all of those strands at the same time? It's very difficult to say. It's usually foolhardy to buy too much into the worst scenarios, yet with each expert in each area describing at length and great detail how their one aspect is going to be a ***show, you have to wonder what it all could add up to. I think the most vanilla best case scenario I can imagine currently is that there will be a horrible short-term mess with the lorry queues, panic-buying, shortages and supermarket rationing similar to that seen with COVID. In the medium term, a sad economic spiral downwards as many of the unfortunately non-illusory project fear elements bite. Perhaps in the longer term things will improve, who knows. In the less vanilla scenarios which, rather scarily given this Government's track record seem more plausible, well god knows - take your pick. Freight being severely limited for months? The situation becoming so bad that some sort of totally humiliating emergency measure needs to be sought from the EU at great long-term cost to ourselves to ease it? I don't know. What already seems inevitable though is that the Government will truly regret not extending transition. I still can't believe that they opted not to in the face of a pandemic and with broad-based public support (yes, including Brexiters) for an extension if it were necessary. Which of course would have been the perfectly reasonable thing to do in almost unprecedented circumstances. Yet, no, we chose to pull on even that risk strand just to really test the limits. It beggars belief. I don't know, what do you think will/could happen?
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