Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 21, 2020 13:46:30 GMT
I suspect PL has got away with rather more already than it would have done if it weren't for the EU having Brexit on its plate over the last few years. Entirely knobbling the judiciary and commandeering the mainstream media into state control are not exactly small fry offences. Their recent draconian new (now delayed) abortion rules introduced through the backdoor are also pretty horrendous stuff. Wife (Polish) and I have lovely exchanges competing over which of our Governments has done the most unpleasant thing that day. Sadly, that's plenty to debate. I completely understand why you consider many actions of the Polish government large fry offences. You might also find abhorrent some of the social attitudes that exist in say Ukraine (wife Ukrainian). They don't tend to like gay people much and racism is so entrenched (more an irrational fear) that when we went to rent a flat in Kyiv recently, the landlord when he found out I was English needed to know if I was "Cherny" which means black. I don't despise him in the way I would a British racist because if I did I'd hate virtually the entire population and there is almost zero contact or education about such things over there as there is here. My point is countries' populations and cultures are often extremely different and we need to take that into account. Whilst I agree I don't like most of what I hear about going on in Poland, I definitely don't like the idea of a European civil service harmonising morality in the same way they do light bulbs and other things. As your version of politics is probably reasonably well aligned with the EUs it is probably easy for you to slip into thinking its a good idea. Its very dangerous in my opinion - look at history when populations feel they have been told what to do by other countries.Of course if you don't like the EU rules you can always leave...
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 21, 2020 14:13:20 GMT
I completely understand why you consider many actions of the Polish government large fry offences. You might also find abhorrent some of the social attitudes that exist in say Ukraine (wife Ukrainian). They don't tend to like gay people much and racism is so entrenched (more an irrational fear) that when we went to rent a flat in Kyiv recently, the landlord when he found out I was English needed to know if I was "Cherny" which means black. I don't despise him in the way I would a British racist because if I did I'd hate virtually the entire population and there is almost zero contact or education about such things over there as there is here. My point is countries' populations and cultures are often extremely different and we need to take that into account. Whilst I agree I don't like most of what I hear about going on in Poland, I definitely don't like the idea of a European civil service harmonising morality in the same way they do light bulbs and other things. As your version of politics is probably reasonably well aligned with the EUs it is probably easy for you to slip into thinking its a good idea. Its very dangerous in my opinion - look at history when populations feel they have been told what to do by other countries.Of course if you don't like the EU rules you can always leave... In that case they should not have joined in the first place. Member states signed up to the EU treaty, whose Article 2 states and Article 7 gives the Council the power to act in case of violations, including to "suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question". The proposal to tie budget payments to the respect of the "rule of law" seems entirely consistent with those rules.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 21, 2020 14:37:13 GMT
I completely understand why you consider many actions of the Polish government large fry offences. You might also find abhorrent some of the social attitudes that exist in say Ukraine (wife Ukrainian). They don't tend to like gay people much and racism is so entrenched (more an irrational fear) that when we went to rent a flat in Kyiv recently, the landlord when he found out I was English needed to know if I was "Cherny" which means black. I don't despise him in the way I would a British racist because if I did I'd hate virtually the entire population and there is almost zero contact or education about such things over there as there is here. My point is countries' populations and cultures are often extremely different and we need to take that into account. Whilst I agree I don't like most of what I hear about going on in Poland, I definitely don't like the idea of a European civil service harmonising morality in the same way they do light bulbs and other things. As your version of politics is probably reasonably well aligned with the EUs it is probably easy for you to slip into thinking its a good idea. Its very dangerous in my opinion - look at history when populations feel they have been told what to do by other countries.Of course if you don't like the EU rules you can always leave... haha
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 21, 2020 14:43:03 GMT
Of course if you don't like the EU rules you can always leave... In that case they should not have joined in the first place. Member states signed up to the EU treaty, whose Article 2 states and Article 7 gives the Council the power to act in case of violations, including to "suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question". The proposal to tie budget payments to the respect of the "rule of law" seems entirely consistent with those rules. Doesn't quite say, for example, what your laws on abortion should be though. I'm sure Roolish knows a lot more than I but I suspect there are a lot of catholics there that wouldn't support it.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 21, 2020 16:15:25 GMT
Doesn't quite say, for example, what your laws on abortion should be though. I'm sure Roolish knows a lot more than I but I suspect there are a lot of catholics there that wouldn't support it. It doesn't, and abortion is illegal in Malta for example, so Poland could have a case to defend their new law there. But it's just one of the many concerns about Poland, with the existing infringement procedure being mostly about judicial independence.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 21, 2020 16:29:02 GMT
Doesn't quite say, for example, what your laws on abortion should be though. I'm sure Roolish knows a lot more than I but I suspect there are a lot of catholics there that wouldn't support it. Indeed. But let's not forget that there are parts of the UK where abortion was illegal on religious grounds until as recently as a few months ago - and, even now, is only "decriminalised". Another EU country very geographically close to us only legalised abortion in 2018. The EU charter does not require abortion. That's not the issue. The issue is that Poland is trying to ride roughshod over large sections of the EU Charter... which they agreed to follow when they joined in 2004 - it was ratified in 2000. But, of course, the hard-right populist "Law and Justice" (ha!) party only gained power in 2005 in coalition, lost it in 2007 and became harder-line, then gained it outright in 2015... And that's when it all started going to the dogs. Not only the race/gender equality bits, but more seriously... ec.europa.eu/info/aid-development-cooperation-fundamental-rights/your-rights-eu/know-your-rights/equality/equality-law_enwww.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/poland-government-attacks-against-judges-threaten-rule-law-new-reportThese are NOT nice people.
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Post by captainconfident on Nov 21, 2020 18:35:40 GMT
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 21, 2020 21:15:44 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 22, 2020 8:38:45 GMT
Woo. A transition-period extension until such time as a new deal can be negotiated. Which will take "several years"... Shame it's only to the Canada-style deal... with Canada.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 22, 2020 9:58:34 GMT
I suspect PL has got away with rather more already than it would have done if it weren't for the EU having Brexit on its plate over the last few years. Entirely knobbling the judiciary and commandeering the mainstream media into state control are not exactly small fry offences. Their recent draconian new (now delayed) abortion rules introduced through the backdoor are also pretty horrendous stuff. Wife (Polish) and I have lovely exchanges competing over which of our Governments has done the most unpleasant thing that day. Sadly, that's plenty to debate. I completely understand why you consider many actions of the Polish government large fry offences. You might also find abhorrent some of the social attitudes that exist in say Ukraine (wife Ukrainian). They don't tend to like gay people much and racism is so entrenched (more an irrational fear) that when we went to rent a flat in Kyiv recently, the landlord when he found out I was English needed to know if I was "Cherny" which means black. I don't despise him in the way I would a British racist because if I did I'd hate virtually the entire population and there is almost zero contact or education about such things over there as there is here. My point is countries' populations and cultures are often extremely different and we need to take that into account. Whilst I agree I don't like most of what I hear about going on in Poland, I definitely don't like the idea of a European civil service harmonising morality in the same way they do light bulbs and other things. As your version of politics is probably reasonably well aligned with the EUs it is probably easy for you to slip into thinking its a good idea. Its very dangerous in my opinion - look at history when populations feel they have been told what to do by other countries. Sorry for the delay in my reply, I spent the whole day in assorted plague tubes* Your Ukrainian experience could definitely be mirrored in Poland too, unfortunately. My wife's family, who are mostly upwardly mobile and thoroughly nice people, are still quite happy to engage in name-calling of black people in a very 'love thy neighbour' (UK 70's horrific sitcom, for those who don't know it) jokey sort of way. Anyway, I'm not sure whether or not I like the idea of a European Civil Service. I suppose firstly, I don't think it's the civil service's role to harmonise morality. If anything that would be the ongoing job of the Government, with Trump's last 4 years doing that in spades (brilliant very long article on that here btw). Secondly, it would just be a practical absolute nightmare. I suppose what it comes down to is: In the span of our lifetimes, I don't see Europe superseding every single element of daily national life. At present, I see them as setting minimum agreed levels of everything (e.g. food standards, agricultural practice, pollution, the rule of law). There should be nothing there which anyone can say makes life worse (aside from arguably perhaps added financial commitments as the price of higher quality/lower emissions). In the long long term, well who knows. Maybe Europe could be homogenised, but then maybe by then the US won't exist anymore having destroyed itself in civil war, and in any case we'll be rather more concerned about half of the globe being underwater and the other half being eternally scorching. i.e. I suppose, it's not worth worrying about, it's too distant. *Couple of observations: 1) Travelling on two connecting plague tubes across 3 different countries right now is not easy. The amount of forms and papers, it's like travelling in Communist times. 2) You'd have thought one would see less elderly people on these journeys right now perhaps. In actuality it seemed to me that that demographic was over-represented 3) If you're expecting half-empty plague tubes if you do travel, then think again. The limited supply made these some of the busiest ever.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 22, 2020 10:56:04 GMT
Woo. A transition-period extension until such time as a new deal can be negotiated. Which will take "several years"... Shame it's only to the Canada-style deal... with Canada. It's 2020. I'll take any shred of positive news I can lay my hands on.
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Post by captainconfident on Nov 22, 2020 12:20:20 GMT
I completely understand why you consider many actions of the Polish government large fry offences. You might also find abhorrent some of the social attitudes that exist in say Ukraine (wife Ukrainian). They don't tend to like gay people much and racism is so entrenched (more an irrational fear) that when we went to rent a flat in Kyiv recently, the landlord when he found out I was English needed to know if I was "Cherny" which means black. I don't despise him in the way I would a British racist because if I did I'd hate virtually the entire population and there is almost zero contact or education about such things over there as there is here. My point is countries' populations and cultures are often extremely different and we need to take that into account. Whilst I agree I don't like most of what I hear about going on in Poland, I definitely don't like the idea of a European civil service harmonising morality in the same way they do light bulbs and other things. As your version of politics is probably reasonably well aligned with the EUs it is probably easy for you to slip into thinking its a good idea. Its very dangerous in my opinion - look at history when populations feel they have been told what to do by other countries. Your Ukrainian experience could definitely be mirrored in Poland too, unfortunately. My wife's family, who are mostly upwardly mobile and thoroughly nice people, are still quite happy to engage in name-calling of black people in a very 'love thy neighbour' (UK 70's horrific sitcom, for those who don't know it) jokey sort of way. Anyway, I'm not sure whether or not I like the idea of a European Civil Service. I suppose firstly, I don't think it's the civil service's role to harmonise morality. If anything that would be the ongoing job of the Government, with Trump's last 4 years doing that in spades (brilliant very long article on that here btw). Secondly, it would just be a practical absolute nightmare. I suppose what it comes down to is: In the span of our lifetimes, I don't see Europe superseding every single element of daily national life. At present, I see them as setting minimum agreed levels of everything (e.g. food standards, agricultural practice, pollution, the rule of law). There should be nothing there which anyone can say makes life worse (aside from arguably perhaps added financial commitments as the price of higher quality/lower emissions). In the long long term, well who knows. Maybe Europe could be homogenised, but then maybe by then the US won't exist anymore having destroyed itself in civil war, and in any case we'll be rather more concerned about half of the globe being underwater and the other half being eternally scorching. i.e. I suppose, it's not worth worrying about, it's too distant. Thanks to both of you for this thought provoking conversation. My observation would be that opinions on the subjects of race and gay rights have changed with a rapidity that seemed very unlikely as recently as ten years ago. The same change in attitudes is mirrored in the USA too. However this always leaves members of the former majority who now find themselves in the minority, as their opinions have not changed. This group will always see laws that set a baseline for equal recognition and equality of treatment in the way the Polish and Hungarian governments do. In those countries, the majority is still in place but surely sees the danger of the same shift in societal values and so tries to entrench their representatives into the civil service, justice system and indeed constitutions of their countries. This comes into conflict with the EUs baselines for justice and equal treatment for all.
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Post by dan1 on Nov 22, 2020 13:51:35 GMT
Woo. A transition-period extension until such time as a new deal can be negotiated. Which will take "several years"... Shame it's only to the Canada-style deal... with Canada. It's 2020. I'll take any shred of positive news I can lay my hands on. Interesting perspective from a former Canadian PM....
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 22, 2020 14:04:06 GMT
dan1 of course. Nothing new there.
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Post by dan1 on Nov 22, 2020 14:14:43 GMT
dan1 of course. Nothing new there. And that's what I find the most depressing aspect of this whole affair, that truly there has been nothing new since 2016. As per our response to Covid-19 we're just living through a slow motion car crash - we can see where we're headed but we're powerless to alter the course of events.
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