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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 11, 2021 14:11:30 GMT
Your question was whether the UK was an inspiring example. I've offered one positive example. For the rest, we'll have to wait and see. It's far too early to judge. You have given one inspiring example, but I hope we agree that on examination, it was nothing to do with Brexit. As for it being too early to judge whether Brewxit will boost the incomes and happiness of the British, there are no positive signs. You are able to remain in denial because there is a time lag between the damage being caused and the damage being felt. I disagree and think it has everything to do with Brexit. Brexit emboldened us to forge a very different path. Without Brexit, I strongly suspect we'd have signed up to the collective purchasing deal. You've probably seen what the CEO of AZN had to say : "Mr Soriot made clear that the UK’s head start – which means more than one in 10 of the entire population has now received at least one dose – was due to the Government’s task force sealing a deal with AstraZeneca three months before the EU.
By contrast, the EU delayed signing its contract, meaning the UK-Swedish pharmaceutical firm had less time to deal with problems relating to supplying European countries."
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Post by dan1 on Feb 11, 2021 14:18:41 GMT
Look, you miss the point, this is not about tit for tat of "he said this, she said that" kind of, well, quite frankly . It's about how the UK-EU relationship proceeds from here. How do we resolve our differences because with your attitude we're heading into decades long period of trade disputes being referred for arbitration and that will kill UK-EU trade. A little less of nationalist tub thumping so prevalent in The Telegraph, Mail, Express and bit more reconciliation. Blaming the EU for every downside will get you knowhere except further division in UK society - perhaps that's what you want, I don't know. That won't happen. The EU will not cut off their nose to spite their face. Like you, I'd like to see an adult relationship, with respect on both sides. With players like Macron involved, that may take a while though... Kill was the wrong word, I should have said damage, harm, reduce or similar. The point being (and I guess we can both agree) that putting up barriers will harm both UK and EU, there are no overall winners. My view of brexit has always been that to have greater control over our borders, laws etc we will have to pay an economic price, as will the EU. In such a large change to our trading relationship there will inevitably be winners and losers on both sides of The Channel but in aggregate the UK and EU will both be poorer than we otherwise would have been. That's not to say there will not be new opportunities to exploit. But Macron is fighting a nationalist threat in Le Pen. Merkel will be replaced later this year as Chancellor. How will these change the dynamic that faces the UK over the coming years? Macron will shift further to the right and that's probably not good for UK-Fr relations, and if he loses in 2022 then expect a further degradation in relations.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 11, 2021 14:34:30 GMT
You've probably seen what the CEO of AZN had to say : "Mr Soriot made clear that the UK’s head start – which means more than one in 10 of the entire population has now received at least one dose – was due to the Government’s task force sealing a deal with AstraZeneca three months before the EU.
By contrast, the EU delayed signing its contract, meaning the UK-Swedish pharmaceutical firm had less time to deal with problems relating to supplying European countries."
And if the AstraZeneca vacc had turned out not to work...? Or had been massively delayed? What if Moderna had come through, and not AZ? Or what if it'd been the Pasteur institute one? Meanwhile, the quote is basically the salesman patting the shoulder of the mark advance customer that's paying a LOT more than the other customer. Some reports say about twice as much for AZ, and about 50% more for Pfizer. Why is Israel even further ahead than the UK? Because they're paying 50-100% more than the UK for Pfizer. Remember - EVERYTHING we did before 1st Jan was within EU rules.
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 11, 2021 14:44:05 GMT
You've probably seen what the CEO of AZN had to say : "Mr Soriot made clear that the UK’s head start – which means more than one in 10 of the entire population has now received at least one dose – was due to the Government’s task force sealing a deal with AstraZeneca three months before the EU.
By contrast, the EU delayed signing its contract, meaning the UK-Swedish pharmaceutical firm had less time to deal with problems relating to supplying European countries."
And if the AstraZeneca vacc had turned out not to work...? Or had been massively delayed? What if Moderna had come through, and not AZ? Or what if it'd been the Pasteur institute one? Meanwhile, the quote is basically the salesman patting the shoulder of the mark advance customer that's paying a LOT more than the other customer. Some reports say about twice as much for AZ, and about 50% more for Pfizer. Why is Israel even further ahead than the UK? Because they're paying 50-100% more than the UK for Pfizer. Remember - EVERYTHING we did before 1st Jan was within EU rules. You could say we got lucky, or you could say we hedged our bets brilliantly by placing faith in the world's best university, alongside placing large orders from several different manufacturers. I think we played it brilliantly. Yes it cost more, but a trivial amount AIUI when set against the overall economic cost of the disease in the UK.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 11, 2021 14:52:03 GMT
...or you could say we hedged our bets brilliantly by placing faith in the world's best university I'm not entirely sure the results of clinical trials work quite like that, y'know...
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 11, 2021 15:00:26 GMT
...or you could say we hedged our bets brilliantly by placing faith in the world's best university I'm not entirely sure the results of clinical trials work quite like that, y'know... Before the clinical trial comes backing the right scientist.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Feb 11, 2021 15:42:35 GMT
It isnt just sticking a pin in a list of potential vaccines. There are early phases that give some indication of the direction of travel. Given that the UK & the EU came to the same decision that AZ was the one to go with and both signed their first contract with the company I think we can remove the element of luck from the debate. The UK also signed the contract with Pfizer first, the EU three months later. Of all the vaccines the only one the EU did a deal first was Curevac, which ironically was the one the kickstarted the whole EU vaccine purchasing program when Trump mooted an exclusivity deal, though it was actually one of the last to be signed, a week before Moderna (UK Moderna contract 1 week earlier)
The EU was slow, its said as much. As to cost, I dont know if specific costs have been provided other than for the EU.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Feb 11, 2021 16:54:40 GMT
Hey, I'm mainly on the fence with all this, (but leant Brexit) however I'm increasingly getting urinated off with the constant negative references to "the Bus" and what it said about Savings on its side. Oh ye all of Very short and selective memory, do you not recall The Government scaring people that it would cost Families an extra £500 or somesuch a year if we left the EU? And as Referendum Time approached an inceasingly desperate/panicking Government gradually increased this figure over the months to suit their needs until they baldly stated it was going to cost UK Families an extra £5,000 or somesuch ludicrous amount per year if we left? Remain lied through their teeth too. It's called politics. Just get over it. Merde happens.
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Post by captainconfident on Feb 11, 2021 17:48:34 GMT
Hey, I'm mainly on the fence with all this, (but leant Brexit) however I'm increasingly getting urinated off with the constant negative references to "the Bus" and what it said about Savings on its side. Oh ye all of Very short and selective memory, do you not recall The Government scaring people that it would cost Families an extra £500 or somesuch a year if we left the EU? And as Referendum Time approached an inceasingly desperate/panicking Government gradually increased this figure over the months to suit their needs until they baldly stated it was going to cost UK Families an extra £5,000 or somesuch ludicrous amount per year if we left? Remain lied through their teeth too. It's called politics. Just get over it. Merde happens. Merde did not just happen. The a proportion of voters country was persuaded to voted to merde on itself by some rich merdes. That's how practically everyone in the rational and outside world sees it and only those who are so inward looking that they can't admit they made a bad buy are left trying to justify the mess. I'm having a day off from trying to sort out the atrocious logistical problems of Brexit. Can you tell?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 11, 2021 18:28:28 GMT
Hey, I'm mainly on the fence with all this, (but leant Brexit) however I'm increasingly getting urinated off with the constant negative references to "the Bus" and what it said about Savings on its side. Oh ye all of Very short and selective memory, do you not recall The Government scaring people that it would cost Families an extra £500 or somesuch a year if we left the EU? Pre-referendum £500 claim fact-checked... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-397850182017 - Resolution Foundation - "No Deal", £500 worse off. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/no-deal-brexit-resolution-foundation_uk_59e4e62ee4b0a52aca19bd67The Treasury's forecast. £4,300 from a Brexit recession. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564...and from that... www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36357177Did you read the Hammond "witness statement"? ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-witness-archive/philip-hammond/'course, it wasn't just the politicians... It was the Bank of England, too - as you saw, they described the £4,300 figure as "reasonable".November 2018 - www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46377309How's those forecasts looking now? Pretty damn accurate, I'd say. LSE view in early 2019, so well pre-Covid... blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/03/21/economic-performance-since-the-brexit-vote-slowed-gdp-growth-lower-productivity-depreciated-pound/"Overall, the real economy shows signs of productivity and real wage stagnation, which has taken the UK much lower than other high-income countries since the Brexit referendum."Covid's just giving a handy smokescreen to hide it behind. Lucky, huh? FT view on how Brexit will affect Covid recovery... www.ft.com/content/21abdaf0-b3b6-4cf9-93f2-007fc1b1b1c8"Economists expect the UK economic recovery in 2021 to be slower than in peer countries, because of a lower starting point, a larger services sector, low business investment and the impact of Brexit.
A survey of nearly 100 economists revealed that most of them expect the size of the economy not to return to pre-pandemic levels until the third quarter of 2022, despite the expectation of a strong consumer-led rebound from the rollout of the coronavirus vaccine. Increased unemployment, bankruptcies and the impact of Brexit are expected to limit the pace of the recovery."But what do the LSE and FT know, eh?
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Post by captainconfident on Feb 11, 2021 18:43:05 GMT
Yes but these are just facts. It's feelings that are important these days. And I'm feeling cross. All around, people are struggling with paperwork, losing their customers. The big companies are organised to stock UK supermarket shelves and keep the surface of the pond seeming unruffled but small exporters, the sector I deal with, have been totally shafted. UK businesses are being strangled, jobs being lost and the chances of the young to make a start in the biggest single market in the world has been thrown away so a few nationalists can feel they got one over on Johnny Foreigner.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Feb 11, 2021 19:14:43 GMT
Just finished a fine repast of fresh langoustines and oysters delivered to East Anglia by courier from the Isle of Skye at a surprisingly good price and arrived with the cooling packs still frozen.
Astounding service, great food, and pleased to support our British fishermen.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 11, 2021 19:29:27 GMT
Just finished a fine repast of fresh langoustines and oysters delivered to East Anglia by courier from the Isle of Skye at a surprisingly good price and arrived with the cooling packs still frozen.
Astounding service, great food, and pleased to support our British fishermen.
Exactly, I do this not necessarily from the same place bur Scotland rocks!
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 11, 2021 19:31:43 GMT
placing faith in the world's best university
The only people who believe that Oxford is the world's best university are the people who've been educated there, and are subsequently left so insecure that they feel obliged to bore everyone rigid for the rest of their lives with that famous one line .... "when I was at Oxford".
There are many damn fantastic universities, both in the UK and the rest of the world.
Neither Oxford, or any other university is worthy of the title "world's best".
Nor is the output of Oxford "world's best" either ! Just look at the present government cabinet, a significant proportion of them went to Oxford. Frankly, given the lack of braincells between them, they should have gone to the local polytechnic instead. Disclosure: No personal agenda here, and as someone who did their degree the hard way (8 years slog with the OU), I'm so tempted to agree with you @wallstreet However, there are so many sources supporting that Oxford/Oxbridge are the best in the world… www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-worldwww.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankingsAnd sorry @wallstreet , but even your beloved Guardian finds against you… www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2020/sep/05/the-best-uk-universities-2021-league-tableThe missus and I love watching University Challenge and notice which teams are victorious. There is a definite pattern.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 11, 2021 19:33:50 GMT
I have a horrible feeling that had the vaccine been an Edinburgh University collaboration it would have been so much better!
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