corto
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Post by corto on Mar 14, 2021 13:51:43 GMT
My mother was a "gypsy" and my father a sailor from Cornwall.
Romanians are beautiful
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 14, 2021 15:49:16 GMT
My mother was a "gypsy" and my father a sailor from Cornwall. Romanians are beautiful Did they have trouble exporting anything?
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corto
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Post by corto on Mar 14, 2021 21:46:47 GMT
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 15, 2021 7:08:53 GMT
The doctor in France who lasered my torn retina a couple of years ago was also Romanian, as was the doctor before her who conducted the preliminary assessment. God bless them both. Good and bad in every race/nation, no question.
Screech, crash, boom... the sound of bernythedolt backtracking rapidly on earlier comments about Eastern Europeans. If you insist on waging a personal vendetta against me, please get your facts straight. I've never mentioned Eastern Europeans, plural. The National Crime Agency reports Romanians alone were charged with more slavery and human trafficking offences in the UK that year than the entire rest of the current EU - another 26 nations - combined. I've presented the evidence for that. It's in the public domain. If you have a shred of decency about you, you should find that statistic as appalling as I do. Now please go away and harangue someone else.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 15, 2021 8:48:51 GMT
So let's consider why people from Romania might be over-represented in illegal migration crime. Perhaps we should start with a look at a map? Massive shared borders with Serbia, Moldova and Ukraine, and a big Black Sea coastline. Easy access from poor countries outside the EU, countries whose residents could quite easily pass as being from their more fortunate neighbour... Yes, Serbs might look more towards Slovenia and Croatia, former countrymates within Yugoslavia, but remember the internal conflicts. There's also the issue of exploitation of the Romani minority within Romania and Slovakia, especially. But that's not what I was taking issue with, Berny. What I was taking issue with was your extrapolation from that very small number of people to half a million people, based on no more knowledge than a shared nationality. You're better than that. And remember, of course, that even within the EU, the UK government had the power to deport and ban EU27/EEA/EFTA nationals. They did it many, many times - from low-level street criminals up to high-profile politicians and rabble-rousers. British nationals - again, up to high-profile politicians - have been deported and barred from EU27 countries, too - again, even within the EU.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 15, 2021 10:03:14 GMT
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 16, 2021 23:47:29 GMT
bernythedolt I thought adrianc did a wonderful job in refuting your attempt to misinterpret data. So, instead of sniping from the sidelines, why don't you share with us your interpretation of the graphic on page 82? I'm sure you'll make a much better job of interpreting the data. The floor is yours...
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 17, 2021 1:39:39 GMT
So let's consider why people from Romania might be over-represented in illegal migration crime. [...] With the greatest of respect, we're talking about something far more serious than just 'illegal migration'. The offence reported is 'modern slavery and human trafficking'. " Human trafficking is the trade of humans for the purpose of forced labour, sexual slavery, or commercial sexual exploitation for the trafficker or others. This may encompass providing a spouse in the context of forced marriage, or the extraction of organs or tissues, including for surrogacy and ova removal." " Human Trafficking is the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of people through force, fraud or deception, with the aim of exploiting them for profit" " Human trafficking is the process of trapping people through the use of violence, deception or coercion and exploiting them for financial or personal gain." " What trafficking really means is girls groomed and forced into sexual exploitation; men tricked into accepting risky job offers and trapped in forced labour in building sites, farms or factories; and women recruited to work in private homes only to be trapped, exploited and abused behind closed doors with no way out." It's pretty sickening stuff, and the label 'illegal migration' doesn't do it justice. The illegal migration of peoples from surrounding countries, as you've described here, I'm sure it goes on, but that involves more of a voluntary participation, money paid over in exchange for a passage to the UK or wherever - in a very different league to the heinous crimes of slavery and trafficking. I'm not sure geography alone explains it.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 17, 2021 11:26:38 GMT
Let me guess bernythedolt , you voted Brexit because you bought into the claptrap spouted by the Brexiteer politicians that once "Brexit was done", the UK would magically become a safe haven for every man, woman and child ? That all this cross-border illegality would magically stop ? And that the illegal types would shut up shop and go home or the UK police would suddenly magic up some resources from nowhere to suddenly arrest those who they were unable to find and arrest before ?
I suspect you are in for a surprise and learn the hard way not to believe what politicians tell you in return for your vote.
You may well name various sickening crimes. Regrettably Brexit aint' gonna change the picture. Criminals will be criminals. The definition of a criminal is they don't care much about politicians, the police, borders or whether the UK is in or out of the EU.
Infact, by leaving the EU, the UK has made it easier for criminals to operate, because through the act of Brexit, the UK chose to leave the collaborative environment of EU policing, the UK chose to loose access to the databases. Brexit makes life HARDER for UK law enforcement, not easier.
Your sunlit uplands of a crime-free UK will forever be a dream.
You may be right of course, I don't share your ability to know what the future holds. I do remember 50 years ago never hearing about slavery and human trafficking here in the UK though... and then we threw open our borders. It's just possible there is a link.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 17, 2021 13:00:36 GMT
I do remember 50 years ago never hearing about slavery and human trafficking here in the UK though... and then we threw open our borders. It's just possible there is a link. Maybe its possible that like the ERG and all the fervent Brexiteers I meet, you are stuck firmly in the past. 50 years ago the world was a different place and the UK was a place where ....
- Hanging was still legal
- Hotels displayed signs reading "no blacks no dogs no irish" - Homosexuality would attract police custody or worse - Use of asbestos was still legal - Pea soup fog caused by pollution was rife etc. etc.
Slavery and human trafficking has been around since time immemorial. Most likely the reason you never heard about it 50 years ago was because the UK was not living in the interconnected world (physical and digital) that it is today. It might also be said that crossing the Channel in an illegal fashion would have been a far more perilous affair 50 years ago than it is today.
*Sounds of barrel being well and truly scraped* 😁 Hanging legal but never used since 1964. Homosexuality decriminalised the same decade. Pea-soupers were becoming rare by 50 years ago, certainly not rife. The perils of asbestos were not known about. Cigarettes were also advertised in a positive light. Does any of this have a bearing on, explain, or excuse, the massive growth of slavery and human trafficking within our shores?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 17, 2021 17:02:55 GMT
Does any of this have a bearing on, explain, or excuse, the massive growth of slavery and human trafficking within our shores? Has it increased, relative to the rest of the world? Is it simply now recognised instead of being ignored? It's certainly increased globally... I mean, given the nation-that-must-not-be-named-except-on-graphs only gained free movement to the UK in 2014, clearly looking back at half a century ago is less relevant than a single decade ago. There certainly doesn't appear to be any correlation around 2014... www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020In fact, if anything, the UK seems not to have increased as rapidly as the rest of the world. One thing's for sure - the UK would not have been a promising destination during the 1970s, when it was the sick man of Europe. Nor would it have been a promising destination in the 1960s, when the very first equality legislation was just being introduced to try and belatedly combat the MASSIVE entrenched discrimination faced by the British nationals who were being invited here wholesale from the colonies in the Caribbean. Legislation that explicitly outlawed discrimination against people on the grounds of national origins... www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1965/73/pdfs/ukpga_19650073_en.pdf
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 17, 2021 19:36:51 GMT
Does any of this have a bearing on, explain, or excuse, the massive growth of slavery and human trafficking within our shores? Has it increased, relative to the rest of the world? Is it simply now recognised instead of being ignored? It's certainly increased globally... I mean, given the nation-that-must-not-be-named-except-on-graphs only gained free movement to the UK in 2014, clearly looking back at half a century ago is less relevant than a single decade ago. There certainly doesn't appear to be any correlation around 2014... www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020In fact, if anything, the UK seems not to have increased as rapidly as the rest of the world. One thing's for sure - the UK would not have been a promising destination during the 1970s, when it was the sick man of Europe. Nor would it have been a promising destination in the 1960s, when the very first equality legislation was just being introduced to try and belatedly combat the MASSIVE entrenched discrimination faced by the British nationals who were being invited here wholesale from the colonies in the Caribbean. Legislation that explicitly outlawed discrimination against people on the grounds of national origins... www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1965/73/pdfs/ukpga_19650073_en.pdfWe don't really need to look for correlation patterns around 2014, of course, or any year. The NCA already tells us directly who today's perpetrators are in the UK (NCA's graphic on p.82). Between 2014 and 2016, your graph of convictions shows an annual increase globally of 41% (from c.4500 to c.9000 global convictions, 100% increase over the two years). In the UK, figures were not well recorded until after the slavery offence reforms in 2015, making direct comparisons difficult. However, this graph of offence numbers (not convictions) in England & Wales only, shows an increase between 2016 and 2019 from 909 to 5144, an annual increase of 78%. See Figure 1 here. Equating the two as best we can, and to answer your initial question above, yes I posit it has almost certainly increased in the UK relative to the rest of the world. The broad indications are the growth in the UK has been around TWICE the growth globally in recent times.... 78% versus 41%. If we then extract the UK's contribution from the global picture (because the UK figures would have been counted in that picture), the UK growth is even worse than twice the global growth.
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 17, 2021 19:40:29 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 17, 2021 20:14:52 GMT
Is it simply now recognised instead of being ignored? In the UK, figures were not well recorded until after the slavery offence reforms in 2015 By George, I think he's got it.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 17, 2021 21:09:40 GMT
In the UK, figures were not well recorded until after the slavery offence reforms in 2015 By George, I think he's got it. ...but now they are well recorded, we can see the massively growing scale of the problem and who is behind it. When you go for your next car wash, just bear in mind many are not there voluntarily.
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