adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 13, 2021 11:10:54 GMT
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 13, 2021 18:52:40 GMT
tried my best to remain civil and non-contentious Says the person who made comments about people from "a certain part of eastern Europe" that were frankly pushing the edge of grey area. People like you are why people like me are increasingly not recognising the UK as the place it used to be. Present UK politics are filthy, decades of close collaboration with its closest neighbors thrown out the window by a deluded government, Brexiteers still making up bull-excrement stories falsely blaming the EU for the dogs-dinner omnishambles of an "agreeement" that Boris & pals drew up that is barely worth the paper it is printed on. Good riddance to you.
It's not a grey area at all. I don’t know if I’ll be permitted the opportunity to defend factually my comment which you find so offensive, but here goes… From the National Crime Agency serious crime report, 2020. Notice how one of the EU27 states is more highly involved in slavery and trafficking offences in the UK than all the other 26 added together. Fact. Published by the state and in the public domain. www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/who-we-are/publications/437-national-strategic-assessment-of-serious-and-organised-crime-2020/file If you think that nation’s propensity for serious crime doesn’t extend downwards to the lesser offences of gang-led prostitution, shoplifting, child begging and pickpocketing, I suggest you take off the rose tinted specs, grow up and do some research instead of trotting out your trite woke nonsense. If Brexit does anything to reduce these crimes in our country over time, then we should all be welcoming it, not burying our heads in the sand and denying they exist.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 13, 2021 19:30:45 GMT
That graph looks to me like the most common nationality involved is UK. It also looks to me like the most common nationality amongst victims is people from the UK. Do you, perchance, listen to the Archers? Can I also remind you of... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-54294006The other thing about people involved in human trafficking... they might not actually be too worried about the niceties of migration law as it applies to themselves. Oh, and then there's the whole leaving the European Arrest Warrant mullarkey, too. FWIW, how much time have you spent in Romania? Or, indeed, Albania...? (Not that Albanians could easily get to the UK, even as tourists - despite being able to work for 90 days a year visa-free in Schengen... It's almost like we had control of our borders all along) I've spent the thick of two months between the two. Lovely places, lovely people. Outside of the bits that have received EU money to improve them, they're still very, VERY poor after the end of Communism, though. Maybe us spending a bit of wealth improving the shanty-town end of the neighbourhood would be a benefit for everybody?
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 13, 2021 20:03:30 GMT
That graph looks to me like the most common nationality involved is UK. It also looks to me like the most common nationality amongst victims is people from the UK. Do you, perchance, listen to the Archers? I thought you'd be above that adrianc . Obviously any crime in the UK is likely to be perpetrated by UK nationals to the largest extent of all - in absolute terms. What matters - and you know this - is the proportionalities involved. I'm not going to bother looking up the proportion of Romanian nationals in the UK and relate it to that graph. You already know you have no argument. How about explaining why Romania outstrips the other EU26 added together, many of whom are equally poor? Anyway, I've already risked censorship twice today. I don't much fancy my chances if I continue. Some people get offended, even by facts.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 13, 2021 20:13:16 GMT
That graph looks to me like the most common nationality involved is UK. It also looks to me like the most common nationality amongst victims is people from the UK. Do you, perchance, listen to the Archers? I thought you'd be above that adrianc . Obviously any crime in the UK is likely to be perpetrated by UK nationals to the largest extent of all - in absolute terms. What matters - and you know this - is the proportionalities involved. I'm not going to bother looking up the proportion of Romanian nationals in the UK and relate it to that graph. You already know you have no argument. How about explaining why Romania outstrips the other EU26 added together, many of whom are equally poor? Anyway, I've already risked censorship twice today. I don't much fancy my chances if I continue. Some people get offended, even by facts. Well, if we're going to look at facts, then how about considering how many actual people are involved? That document you linked to doesn't specify the number of people believed to be involved. But this ONS document gives the number of people prosecuted... 322 in 2019. That's how many that graph is based on... www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020Romania seems to be a bit under 90deg of the graph you linked - so you're talking about just 70-75 people - out of an estimated 420,000 Romanian nationals in the UK in 2019. If you want to talk about proportionality, then how do you justify extrapolating the alleged misdeeds of each one of those defendants (innocent until proven guilty, let's not forget) to SIX THOUSAND innocent people?
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james100
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Post by james100 on Mar 13, 2021 20:47:55 GMT
That National Crime Agency report is fascinating (thank you for posting). The standout clauses for me were: 161. The UK remains an attractive place for criminals from around the world who want to set up companies to launder their profits. Criminals exploit the ease with which UK companies can be established, the broad range of professional services on offer and the access UK systems provide to higher-risk jurisdictions. Research by Transparency International suggests 929 UK companies were involved in cases of corruption and money laundering in 2019, amounting to £137 billion in economic damage 162. Criminals continue to purchase property in the UK to launder large sums of money. Complex company structures make the true owner(s) behind corporate purchasers difficult to identify. The GB / British Isles / British Overseas Territories tax-and-transparency evasion structures (so hotly defended by our government when under attack from the EU anti-tax avoidance directive) acts as the facilitating hub of a phenomenal amount of international organised crime with impacts which reverberate throughout the world. That doesn't diminish the criminality of those 75 (or whatever) Romanians in the slightest. But it would surely be a stretch to say we're good guys....
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 13, 2021 23:52:33 GMT
I thought you'd be above that adrianc . Obviously any crime in the UK is likely to be perpetrated by UK nationals to the largest extent of all - in absolute terms. What matters - and you know this - is the proportionalities involved. I'm not going to bother looking up the proportion of Romanian nationals in the UK and relate it to that graph. You already know you have no argument. How about explaining why Romania outstrips the other EU26 added together, many of whom are equally poor? Anyway, I've already risked censorship twice today. I don't much fancy my chances if I continue. Some people get offended, even by facts. Well, if we're going to look at facts, then how about considering how many actual people are involved? That document you linked to doesn't specify the number of people believed to be involved. But this ONS document gives the number of people prosecuted... 322 in 2019. That's how many that graph is based on... www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020Romania seems to be a bit under 90deg of the graph you linked - so you're talking about just 70-75 people - out of an estimated 420,000 Romanian nationals in the UK in 2019. If you want to talk about proportionality, then how do you justify extrapolating the alleged misdeeds of each one of those defendants (innocent until proven guilty, let's not forget) to SIX THOUSAND innocent people? You’ve implicitly assumed here the other 6,000 are innocent of all other crime of course, which is most unlikely, given slavery is just one (low incidence, low participation) crime amongst the whole spectrum of crimes. You’ve also missed the 284 charged in 2018, the 295 in 2017, etc, etc, from the same population. So that ratio of 1 wrongdoer in 6,000 of the population is an underestimate, but we'll go with 6,000 for now. By contrast, the UK contingent from that same chart appears to be circa 130 out of a population of, let’s say, 58m ‘UK, non-EU’ citizens (the exact number is immaterial). That’s 1 in 446,000. Somewhat different to 1 in 6,000. Two orders of magnitude different, in fact, and far too much to be ignored. There is a clear pattern. If you then extrapolate to the universe of all other crimes, it’s not wholly unreasonable to imagine a similar two orders of magnitude might apply there too. We could be very generous and say one order of magnitude. Still far too much. I’ve found it difficult to turn up any statistics on this (I don’t know if nationality is even recorded for non-serious crime, in the way it has been here for serious crime). So we are stuck with the serious crime record, a bit of intuitive guesswork, and the body of searchable media reports over the years. Returning to the gist of the original question as to why did people vote Brexit, I’ve tried to address this honestly and in good faith and been censored and insulted for my troubles. I didn’t personally get a vote, but I’m proffering here one reason people may have voted as they did. Perception drives voting behaviour, and the question of law & order is very important to a lot of people. I dedicated my entire career to the business.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 13, 2021 23:55:53 GMT
I've only ever met two Romanians in the UK. Both were PhD quants working for investment banks.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 14, 2021 0:05:30 GMT
That National Crime Agency report is fascinating (thank you for posting). The standout clauses for me were: 161. The UK remains an attractive place for criminals from around the world who want to set up companies to launder their profits. Criminals exploit the ease with which UK companies can be established, the broad range of professional services on offer and the access UK systems provide to higher-risk jurisdictions. Research by Transparency International suggests 929 UK companies were involved in cases of corruption and money laundering in 2019, amounting to £137 billion in economic damage 162. Criminals continue to purchase property in the UK to launder large sums of money. Complex company structures make the true owner(s) behind corporate purchasers difficult to identify. The GB / British Isles / British Overseas Territories tax-and-transparency evasion structures (so hotly defended by our government when under attack from the EU anti-tax avoidance directive) acts as the facilitating hub of a phenomenal amount of international organised crime with impacts which reverberate throughout the world. That doesn't diminish the criminality of those 75 (or whatever) Romanians in the slightest. But it would surely be a stretch to say we're good guys.... Trying hard to, but I'm not sure I'm following the logic. If foreign criminals are taking advantage of a country that's trying its best to thwart them (but still has much work to do), who are the criminals? You appear to be saying it's "us", meaning the people, the government or...?
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 14, 2021 0:16:45 GMT
Look, I'm sure it's right that immigrants are disproportionately likely to be poor and to turn to crime and this was a reason that people voted for Brexit. But Brexit is over and done with. We are faced with current problems that the government in a desperate attempt to edge out the Brexit party, reinterpreted Brexit in a way that is a disaster for trade and therefore our future prosperity. And that is the subject of this thread. Let's stick to post Brexit problems.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 14, 2021 0:26:25 GMT
I've only ever met two Romanians in the UK. Both were PhD quants working for investment banks. The doctor in France who lasered my torn retina a couple of years ago was also Romanian, as was the doctor before her who conducted the preliminary assessment. God bless them both. Good and bad in every race/nation, no question.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 14, 2021 0:40:27 GMT
Look, I'm sure it's right that immigrants are disproportionately likely to be poor and to turn to crime and this was a reason that people voted for Brexit. But Brexit is over and done with. We are faced with current problems that the government in a desperate attempt to edge out the Brexit party, reinterpreted Brexit in a way that is a disaster for trade and therefore our future prosperity. And that is the subject of this thread. Let's stick to post Brexit problems.That's fair... provided Brexiters aren't continually derided for their voting decision and constantly asked to justify it, as in this thread.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 14, 2021 11:00:37 GMT
Well, if we're going to look at facts, then how about considering how many actual people are involved? That document you linked to doesn't specify the number of people believed to be involved. But this ONS document gives the number of people prosecuted... 322 in 2019. That's how many that graph is based on... www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020Romania seems to be a bit under 90deg of the graph you linked - so you're talking about just 70-75 people - out of an estimated 420,000 Romanian nationals in the UK in 2019. If you want to talk about proportionality, then how do you justify extrapolating the alleged misdeeds of each one of those defendants (innocent until proven guilty, let's not forget) to SIX THOUSAND innocent people? You’ve implicitly assumed here the other 6,000 are innocent of all other crime of course, which is most unlikely Whereas you've implicitly assumed they must be guilty, simply because you know no more than their ethnicity. There's a term for that.
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 14, 2021 11:22:07 GMT
You’ve implicitly assumed here the other 6,000 are innocent of all other crime of course, which is most unlikely Whereas you've implicitly assumed they must be guilty, simply because you know no more than their ethnicity. There's a term for that. Oi! Leave it!
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 14, 2021 12:39:55 GMT
You’ve implicitly assumed here the other 6,000 are innocent of all other crime of course, which is most unlikely Whereas you've implicitly assumed they must be guilty, simply because you know no more than their ethnicity. There's a term for that. Whereas you can only resort to ad hominem because the figures make uncomfortable reading. That's me out.
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