|
Post by overthehill on Feb 4, 2022 16:59:15 GMT
I should probably change the title to 'Green Hydrogen the green energy of the future'. Hydrogen is here to stay , it is just question of politics, big business money, momentum, driving costs down, production efficiencies and the right uses. It's taken a lot longer than it should have because of oil and gas and renewable energy. It was always going to happen at some point, we wouldn't exist at all without the energy from hydrogen fusion. Nothing is 100% I suppose considering the electric car was invented over a 100 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 16:27:40 GMT
I seem to remember we discussed heat pumps and a special type of high temperature heat pump designed for the Dutch and UK market that fixes the poor results around 0C. Report from the company as follows
Vattenfall
The high temperatures provided by the system and the hassle free installation without costly prerequisites on insulation and radiator system, come at a price. The seasonal efficiency of the system is lower than what can be reached with a traditional heat pump. However, it is still almost three times as efficient as a gas boiler and using green electricity, there are no CO2 emissions.
Given an average household with an annual space heating demand of 11.000 kWh and a domestic hot water demand of 2.000 kWh in a real house simulation model (approved by the Dutch government and used to determine the energy label of a house with the high temperature heat pump), the overall seasonal efficiency of the high temperature heat pump system is approximately 260%. The gas boiler in this situation, would have an efficiency of approximately 90% (excluding electric use of the gas boiler.). So the high temperature heat pump is almost 3 times as efficient as a gas boiler. A traditional heat pump would in this case have an overall seasonal efficiency of approximately 350%. But we also know that using a traditional heat pump in an existing dwelling is virtually impossible, while the high temperature heat pump can simply replace the gas boiler in just 2 days.
There are some limitations: the maximum nominal heating demand of the house should not exceed 6kW, and the peak power demand should not exceed 11kW. In the Netherlands this applies for 3 million or 60% of the ground-bound houses.
Finally, even though additional measures on insulation are not necessary, we strongly recommend to take these measures during future maintenance of the house as reducing energy losses always makes sense.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,884
Likes: 2,316
|
Post by keitha on Feb 17, 2022 11:46:23 GMT
I seem to remember we discussed heat pumps and a special type of high temperature heat pump designed for the Dutch and UK market that fixes the poor results around 0C. Report from the company as follows
Vattenfall
The high temperatures provided by the system and the hassle free installation without costly prerequisites on insulation and radiator system, come at a price. The seasonal efficiency of the system is lower than what can be reached with a traditional heat pump. However, it is still almost three times as efficient as a gas boiler and using green electricity, there are no CO2 emissions.
Given an average household with an annual space heating demand of 11.000 kWh and a domestic hot water demand of 2.000 kWh in a real house simulation model (approved by the Dutch government and used to determine the energy label of a house with the high temperature heat pump), the overall seasonal efficiency of the high temperature heat pump system is approximately 260%. The gas boiler in this situation, would have an efficiency of approximately 90% (excluding electric use of the gas boiler.). So the high temperature heat pump is almost 3 times as efficient as a gas boiler. A traditional heat pump would in this case have an overall seasonal efficiency of approximately 350%. But we also know that using a traditional heat pump in an existing dwelling is virtually impossible, while the high temperature heat pump can simply replace the gas boiler in just 2 days.
There are some limitations: the maximum nominal heating demand of the house should not exceed 6kW, and the peak power demand should not exceed 11kW. In the Netherlands this applies for 3 million or 60% of the ground-bound houses.
Finally, even though additional measures on insulation are not necessary, we strongly recommend to take these measures during future maintenance of the house as reducing energy losses always makes sense.
peak power not above 11kWh hmm remember also that Dutch houses tend to be better insulated than British I have a 28kWh boiler that runs at about 95% efficiency 2 weeks ago I had 2 days when the boiler ran for 8 hours. at 11kWh it would be running for 20 hours. my average use in the winter is about 60kWh with my current heating up in the morning, cooling during the day, then heating again in the evening Having only this would mean having the house at a pretty constant temperature, basic physics then says that this is more costly than a heating cooling cycle, this would increase the cost. ignoring standing charges which some companies are looking to jack up to nearly 50p per day and using as an example Heating requirement 10,000kWh a year Hot Water 2,000kWh a year Gas after April would cost at the new cap of approximately 8P £960 add in 10% for boiler efficiency £1100 Electric after April at the new cap of 28p and also assuming that heating via a heat pump with a COP of 2.5 10000 / 2.5 =4000kWh Water Directly heated 2000kWh total of 6000 kWh @28p £1680 in colder areas and during cold weather the heat pump will have a lower COP
|
|
|
Post by overthehill on Apr 2, 2022 12:44:55 GMT
Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,020
Likes: 4,829
|
Post by adrianc on Apr 2, 2022 13:14:38 GMT
remember also that Dutch houses tend to be better insulated than British Why is this country so against the concept of insulation...?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2022 13:52:34 GMT
why is the country against insulation...
Variables
The proportion of renters The proportion of renters from the state The number of people who are so used to the state looking after them they no longer take responsability for themselves The number of people who use their house as their pension rather than develop it as a low cost living space The incredibly low cost of fossil fuels compared to insulation The terrible science education in the country The attitude of "awe" when someone says they are a scientist, watch any good game show and the mockery of a half intelligent answer
Pick one
|
|
|
Post by crabbyoldgit on Apr 3, 2022 18:37:28 GMT
why is this country against insulation
Because they can not be bothered to put any effort in Somebody else should do it , pay for it. Need the money for some form of selfgratification right now Any free insulation in freecycle or is available in gumtree or ebay at £5 a role or less , local to me. I grab it , result is my loft insulation varies between 500 and 750mm and its cost me next to bugger all. Sadly cannot have cavity wall insulation, cavity to narrow and stuck out in english channel , exposed location with the sea within 1 mile within a 320 degree arc . But I do not pay for space heating as I heat with free logs, so no economic return, but its worth putting the effort in now to ensure my comfort when I am to old to hump wood. People tell me I am lucky to be in this position and some infer its unfair. One guy even asked if he got a logburner fitted would I provide, deliver and stack free wood all winter for him.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,020
Likes: 4,829
|
Post by adrianc on Apr 3, 2022 18:54:26 GMT
One guy even asked if he got a logburner fitted would I provide, deliver and stack free wood all winter for him. The cheek! Bet he thinks it just grows on trees...
|
|
travolta
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 1,172
|
Post by travolta on Apr 3, 2022 19:23:27 GMT
Wow,where do you get FREE logs from? ( Good King Wenceslaus?)
By the time we've felled trees (chainsaw etc). Moved and stacked them (Fuel, trailer, woodstore etc) there's considerable output ,but not to justify the £25.00 a net spotted at the local EG filling station.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,884
Likes: 2,316
|
Post by keitha on Apr 3, 2022 22:11:12 GMT
why is the country against insulation...
Variables
The proportion of renters The proportion of renters from the state The number of people who are so used to the state looking after them they no longer take responsibility for themselves The number of people who use their house as their pension rather than develop it as a low cost living space The incredibly low cost of fossil fuels compared to insulation The terrible science education in the country The attitude of "awe" when someone says they are a scientist, watch any good game show and the mockery of a half intelligent answer
Pick one
Of course this group is less affected than others I have a friend on pension credit, and he was saying it was up for renewal , and as he gets it he doesn't pay council tax so is insulated against council tax rises. he gets lots of benefits and some being dependant on what he has after paying bills he says the increase in gas and electricity hardly affects him. whereas if he had a slightly bigger pension he would be impacted by both. The binary setting on certain benefits can be a huge hit if you are literally £1 over.
|
|
|
Post by crabbyoldgit on Apr 4, 2022 6:39:41 GMT
Wow,where do you get FREE logs from? ( Good King Wenceslaus?) By the time we've felled trees (chainsaw etc). Moved and stacked them (Fuel, trailer, woodstore etc) there's considerable output ,but not to justify the £25.00 a net spotted at the local EG filling station. I get my wood from two sources 1 My local Jewsons put aside all the wood bearers which timber is supplied on , they are about 75 mm x 75mm x 1.5m about half pine and half white oak. I get about 100 lengths a month, saves them skips and landfill. Last year they delivered and craned on the drive 3 complete stacks of 6 x 3 unteated pine which one end had got wet and fungus established, for free of course. 2 About 1/2 a mile away i have a high quality joiners shop , specialising in hard wood, they bag and put asde the end noggin bits for me , american ash, walnut , oak . Some nights i have just burnt teak. Again they are greatful , boss reckons i save him 4 skips a year, around here thats over £1000 3 Real logs to look good at xmas is the big challenge , i drive a small van and check every skip every time.Wife is a part time gardener and puts tree work the way if a local man , once in awhile he will drop off a load stuff. Its wet and uncut , but i have storage space
|
|
james100
Member of DD Central
Posts: 994
Likes: 1,200
|
Post by james100 on Apr 4, 2022 11:05:12 GMT
Wood burners....are they not widely regarded as incredibly unhealthy now and something to get rid of ASAP? I have one in my house, here when I bought it and never lit by me. The glass door spontaneously cracked, due to a bit of roof movement I think, and I've had it wrapped up in safety plastic while trying to decide whether I should get it repaired or rip it out. I've been stagnating for a year now!
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,020
Likes: 4,829
|
Post by adrianc on Apr 4, 2022 13:27:16 GMT
Wood burners....are they not widely regarded as incredibly unhealthy now and something to get rid of ASAP? No. Burning locally grown biomass is a very environmentally friendly heating option. Depending on how complete combustion is, there can be localised particulate issues, but they're only likely to be relevant in urban environments. In urban environments? With 'orrible nasty petrol station cheap damp wood? Yes, absolutely. The worst of the nasty fuel has already been banned... www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-beginSome stoves are worse than others, with different grades of cleanliness assigned to any recent purchases... www.clearskiesmark.org/In rural environments, with properly seasoned wood? No.
|
|
james100
Member of DD Central
Posts: 994
Likes: 1,200
|
Post by james100 on Apr 4, 2022 13:54:20 GMT
Wood burners....are they not widely regarded as incredibly unhealthy now and something to get rid of ASAP? No. Burning locally grown biomass is a very environmentally friendly heating option. Depending on how complete combustion is, there can be localised particulate issues, but they're only likely to be relevant in urban environments. In urban environments? With 'orrible nasty petrol station cheap damp wood? Yes, absolutely. The worst of the nasty fuel has already been banned... www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-beginSome stoves are worse than others, with different grades of cleanliness assigned to any recent purchases... www.clearskiesmark.org/In rural environments, with properly seasoned wood? No. Thank you. I clearly have even more homework to do than usual.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Apr 4, 2022 14:40:21 GMT
No. Burning locally grown biomass is a very environmentally friendly heating option. Depending on how complete combustion is, there can be localised particulate issues, but they're only likely to be relevant in urban environments. In urban environments? With 'orrible nasty petrol station cheap damp wood? Yes, absolutely. The worst of the nasty fuel has already been banned... www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-beginSome stoves are worse than others, with different grades of cleanliness assigned to any recent purchases... www.clearskiesmark.org/In rural environments, with properly seasoned wood? No. Thank you. I clearly have even more homework to do than usual. I was bought up rural, with open log fires + paraffin stoves as our heating sources. Many a happy hour (I think it was happy) was spent dragging tree limbs out the local woods, sawing and splitting (bowsaw and later BIG circular saw + axes and wedges: no electric log splitter back then). And with 2 large wood stores to store wood, it was nearly always fairly well seasoned by the time it hit the fire. Those open fires were replaced with log burners quite a while back, but after I had fled the nest. Give the propensity for open fires - however well shaped/designed they are - to blow smoke back into the house, and given what we know now about the potential harmful effects of particulates, I wouldn't want anyone to go back to that if avoidable. No wonder wood stove cooking in poor parts of the world (e.g. rural india) is now seen as a significant health hazard. Also in that case bad for the environment because the wood harvesting is not sustainable: generally leading to denuded land which is then prone to flooding and mudslides etc. But using sustainable i.e. replaced biomass in (relatively efficient log burners) and in a rural environment (low density, good opp. for particulate matter to disperse), I'd have thought it was a pretty good source of heating.
|
|