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Post by phoenix on Dec 20, 2014 9:23:36 GMT
The problem, obviously, is global warming. I hope we're all grown up enough to believe that's happening. I don't think it's about maturity so much as sanity. Anybody who at this stage of the game still thinks it's a conspiracy is obviously paranoid.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 20, 2014 11:46:11 GMT
shimself -Define the problem first that these regressive policies are supposed to be solving. Electricity production from renewable resources? That is not a problem - that is a policy, a perceived solution to something. I think we're dealing with semantics here. OK, I'll play. I'll change my statement of the problem to " Insufficient electricity production from renewable resources." Is that better/clearer?
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Dec 20, 2014 11:51:44 GMT
Let the punishment fit the crime.
The crime is profligate waste of finite resources.
Increase the cost of consuming the finite resource and use the proceeds to provide alternative infinite resource.
I don't understand why this logic is not self evident even to Daily Mail writers/readers.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 20, 2014 13:11:01 GMT
I think we're dealing with semantics here. OK, I'll play. I'll change my statement of the problem to " Insufficient electricity production from renewable resources." Is that better/clearer? If we're getting semantically picky, then I'd turn it round a bit. The problem isn't insufficient renewable electricity generation, but excessive electricity generation from non-renewable sources. But, of course, that's not the only source of atmospheric CO2. Burning dead dinosaurs isn't even the only source. IIRC, something like 10% of the world's CO2 emissions come from the production and use of concrete.
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sqh
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Post by sqh on Dec 20, 2014 14:05:13 GMT
It is clear that some people are against the cost of Renewable Energy and subsidies, but do they consider the long term?
What never gets mentioned is that when the FiT payments stop, the Wind Turbines and Solar Panels keep on working. Some of the least efficient ones may get decommissioned, but the vast majority will be providing very cheap electricity. The Energy companies will be able to buy this energy at a fraction of the cost of that produced by fossil fuels.
So the subsidies are just the cost of upfront investment.
Personally I think the government should be doing far more. For instance, every new build house should have a south facing roof made entirely of solar panels not tiles.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Dec 20, 2014 14:12:52 GMT
shimself -Define the problem first that these regressive policies are supposed to be solving. Seeing as you know these policies are wrong I'd rather hoped you might define terms, but seeing as you won't: Sufficient energy supply, affordable, reducing pollution, enhancing energy security, global warming
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Dec 20, 2014 14:18:09 GMT
Personally I think the government should be doing far more. For instance, every new build house should have a south facing roof made entirely of solar panels not tiles. Yes yes yes. Far more sensible than bribing fat cat landowners to fill fields full of panels (and enduring all the transmission losses getting the supply to the consumer). And far better to make it part of standard construction with all the materials bought at trade prices, not hawked door to door by salespeople out to make the biggest commission they can gouge out of the residents.
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sqh
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Post by sqh on Dec 20, 2014 16:34:47 GMT
I emphatically agree with the roof panels idea, I once read there is enough roof space in England to entirely power England. Whether that was true or not I'm not sure but it sounded plausible, given a house can usually generate more power from it's roof than it consumes. It's all a question of being economically viable, as we the public will only get involved when it makes financial sense, hence Fit rates. The cost would come down substantially, though, if a roofing system made mainly of solar panels was introduced first into Code 6 builds, then in time moved to Code 5, etc. I think it is already financially economical for new housing estates. There is a problem where the local electricity cabling and substation can't support the power generated. That's why the standard residental system is limited to 4kw (actually limited to 3.7kw at the inverter). Last year I paid £5,700 for a 4kW solar panel system with 10 year insurance backed warranty. There are 16 panels each measuring approx 1m x 1.5m which = 24sq metres. I would imagine that tiling a roof area of 24sq metres is not much cheaper. I'm also told that the solar panels help strengthen the roof. A new 3 bed semi with a pent roof facing south (say 36sqm) would produce between 5-7Mw p.a. depending on UK location. It wouldn't need any subsidy.
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 20, 2014 17:26:01 GMT
The current limitation on solar expansion is storage, essentially the need for giant batteries to hold release energy after the sun goes down. Pumping water uphill at to ims of peak supply for use in later hydro electric generation is one way to do this, but these tend not to be near population centres. Wind and tidal are more consistent generators and really more suitable for less sunny northern countries. A 'smart' electricity network which moves electricity to respond to demand is also desirable, but the electricity generating companies are not investing in this. Unfortunately hysteria about their 5% profit margin and threats to cap electricity prices add to the disincentive for them to invest.
Interestingly, I was reading that electricity consumption has fallen rapidly due to adoption of energy efficient consumer goods (flat screen TVs etc), and that in the US by far the biggest area where electricity demand was rising was from electric cars. This article was pointing out that it was bizarre that that no electricity supply company had invested anything on electric car charging points, inspite of their being mon the edge of a vast market where electricity can directly replace petrol. The figures were from California where there are a lot of early adopters and the rise on consumption was significant.
Of course, all cars will be electric and driverless in a few years time and will come to pick you up when you call for one.
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sqh
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Post by sqh on Dec 20, 2014 22:52:49 GMT
The current limitation on solar expansion is storage, essentially the need for giant batteries to hold release energy after the sun goes down. Pumping water uphill at to ims of peak supply for use in later hydro electric generation is one way to do this, but these tend not to be near population centres. Wind and tidal are more consistent generators and really more suitable for less sunny northern countries. A 'smart' electricity network which moves electricity to respond to demand is also desirable, but the electricity generating companies are not investing in this. Unfortunately hysteria about their 5% profit margin and threats to cap electricity prices add to the disincentive for them to invest. Interestingly, I was reading that electricity consumption has fallen rapidly due to adoption of energy efficient consumer goods (flat screen TVs etc), and that in the US by far the biggest area where electricity demand was rising was from electric cars. This article was pointing out that it was bizarre that that no electricity supply company had invested anything on electric car charging points, inspite of their being mon the edge of a vast market where electricity can directly replace petrol. The figures were from California where there are a lot of early adopters and the rise on consumption was significant. Of course, all cars will be electric and driverless in a few years time and will come to pick you up when you call for one. Electric cars would be popular if you didn't need to charge the battery. I want to be able to drive into a petrol station and swap a discharged battery for a charged one. Of course it won't be called a petrol station, it'll be a solar station with a field full of solar panels and wind turbines charging batteries for fun. Right now it's wishful thinking for many reasons. When the North Pole has melted it may happen.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Dec 21, 2014 0:14:51 GMT
I think batteries are the wrong tehnology. They are heavy (which increases energy consumption) and they use nasty/rare chemicals which cost a lot of energy to produce.
Fuel cells are a much better idea and their time should come, probably running on hydrogen derived from electrolysis. Give it 20-30 years.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 21, 2014 9:00:37 GMT
Hydrogen is easy to produce, but a PITA to store/transport, AIUI. Someother fuel for fuel cells might be easier?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 21, 2014 9:29:53 GMT
There is a problem where the local electricity cabling and substation can't support the power generated. And this feeds straight back into the "electric car" debate, too. On our plot, just at the back of our garage, is the transformer serving us, our six neighbours in this little hamlet, and the farm next door. There are three-phase 11kV high voltage lines heading to it. Last year, as part of a stack of work Western Power did, they replaced the transformer and the pole it lives up. Did they replace it with a big, beefy three-phase transformer ready for decades of possible expansion and upgrade? They did not. They put a shiny new single-phase 300A transformer with a 200A fuse on it. It doesn't take a lot of understanding of watts = amps x volts to see that's not going to allow very much electric car charging, or to see that it's a serious cap on feeding power back to the grid. The typical 30A domestic chargers would take north of 12 hours to fully charge a Tesla electric car, not the "under an hour" that the marketing boasts of at fast chargers (the nearest of which is probably not actually reachable in a round trip from here without recharging). The other factor around PVs and the Feed-In Tariff is the uselessness of EPCs. We looked seriously at putting PVs in here - but, because our EPC score is low (despite the reality being that the house is very warm and well insulated - it's just that the person doing the EPC couldn't prod the actual insulation), we'd get a significantly lower FIT, making it a poor investment.
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sqh
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Post by sqh on Dec 21, 2014 10:10:29 GMT
I think batteries are the wrong tehnology. They are heavy (which increases energy consumption) and they use nasty/rare chemicals which cost a lot of energy to produce. Fuel cells are a much better idea and their time should come, probably running on hydrogen derived from electrolysis. Give it 20-30 years. I agree, Hydrogen pellet technology seemed to be the answer when it was announced back in 2011. Well, we may not need to wait 20-30 years, how about 20-30 months. www.greencarreports.com/news/1095985_2016-toyota-mirai-first-drive-of-hydrogen-fuel-cell-sedan
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Dec 21, 2014 11:05:55 GMT
Technical feasibility is one thing. Unfortunately, getting the price down to mass market levels, and getting the infrastructure in place, will take much longer.
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