mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 9, 2016 17:42:42 GMT
dualinvestor : Are you saying that if the assets subject to the floating charge are insufficient to pay the administration fees, those fees go unpaid unless there's a surplus after the fixed charge is settled in full (including accrued interest)? I thought admin costs always were paid, even before any fixed charge. Administration fees and expenses are payable out of assets subject to the floating charge unless the fixed charge holder and the Administrators have agreed otherwise. The costs of realising fixed charge assets are paid first. OK. But if I were an administrator I wouldn't accept an appointment unless I was guaranteed to be paid. If that's typical, then SS/Lendy might have had to agree to subordinate their proceeds.
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Sept 9, 2016 17:52:04 GMT
Administration fees and expenses are payable out of assets subject to the floating charge unless the fixed charge holder and the Administrators have agreed otherwise. The costs of realising fixed charge assets are paid first. OK. But if I were an administrator I wouldn't accept an appointment unless I was guaranteed to be paid. If that's typical, then SS/Lendy might have had to agree to subordinate their proceeds. It's not typical it is the law. But as Administrators are not renowned for pro bono work when assets are around it is inconceivable that they would not have reached an understanding with Lendy over their fees. Which brings us back to the original point about the update such figures are easily ascertained and therefore it is obfuscation and dissembling to say that the outcome is still unclear unless they are still negotiating the price.
|
|
jamesc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 447 
Likes: 253
|
Post by jamesc on Sept 9, 2016 17:56:31 GMT
OK. But if I were an administrator I wouldn't accept an appointment unless I was guaranteed to be paid. If that's typical, then SS/Lendy might have had to agree to subordinate their proceeds. It's not typical it is the law. But as Administrators are not renowned for pro bono work when assets are around it is inconceivable that they would not have reached an understanding with Lendy over their fees. Which brings us back to the original point about the update such figures are easily ascertained and therefore it is obfuscation and dissembling to say that the outcome is still unclear unless they are still negotiating the price. I not sure what world you live in but in the real well in a multi million pound administration, things are never clear until all the i's are dotted and t's crossed, SS are covering their back because anything could come out the woodwork at the 11th hour !!
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Sept 9, 2016 18:08:11 GMT
It's not typical it is the law. But as Administrators are not renowned for pro bono work when assets are around it is inconceivable that they would not have reached an understanding with Lendy over their fees. Which brings us back to the original point about the update such figures are easily ascertained and therefore it is obfuscation and dissembling to say that the outcome is still unclear unless they are still negotiating the price. I not sure what world you live in but in the real well in a multi million pound administration, things are never clear until all the i's are dotted and t's crossed, SS are covering their back because anything could come out the woodwork at the 11th hour !! I am not sure you have any experience of this. This is not a multi-million pound Administration such as BHS or Lehman Bros. It is a single asset single secured creditor few preferential creditors and no hope of a return to unsecured creditors. Anyone with rudimentary arithmetic skills can predict the outcome once they know the fees.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 9, 2016 19:01:07 GMT
OK. But if I were an administrator I wouldn't accept an appointment unless I was guaranteed to be paid. If that's typical, then SS/Lendy might have had to agree to subordinate their proceeds. It's not typical it is the law. But as Administrators are not renowned for pro bono work when assets are around it is inconceivable that they would not have reached an understanding with Lendy over their fees. : Apologies for not making myself clear. I wasn't questioning the payment priority as you described it. When I said "If that's typical" I meant administrators not accepting appointments without an assurance that they'd be paid in full.
|
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Sept 9, 2016 19:49:22 GMT
I am not fully au fait with this, is the pic below too simplistic? In the event of an administration , this is the order of realization payments.  |
|
jamesc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 447
Likes: 253
|
Post by jamesc on Sept 9, 2016 19:53:36 GMT
I not sure what world you live in but in the real well in a multi million pound administration, things are never clear until all the i's are dotted and t's crossed, SS are covering their back because anything could come out the woodwork at the 11th hour !! I am not sure you have any experience of this. This is not a multi-million pound Administration such as BHS or Lehman Bros. It is a single asset single secured creditor few preferential creditors and no hope of a return to unsecured creditors. Anyone with rudimentary arithmetic skills can predict the outcome once they know the fees. I don't think that you have any experience of this because firstly multi-million means more than one and last time I looked the 'asset value' here is £2.4mln with a loan of £1.7mln both more than one million. As a Chartered Accountant with very good arithmetic skills I have never been able to predict the outcome of ANY Administration with any certainty and it would be unprofessional of SS to try. I stay with my previous suggestion that I don't think you live in the real world if you expect any different. Furthermore a recent update says an offer has been accepted and that it is in with lawyers anything could come out of that process that could effect the final outcome so once again I think you are being unrealistic.
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Sept 9, 2016 20:34:17 GMT
I am not sure you have any experience of this. This is not a multi-million pound Administration such as BHS or Lehman Bros. It is a single asset single secured creditor few preferential creditors and no hope of a return to unsecured creditors. Anyone with rudimentary arithmetic skills can predict the outcome once they know the fees. I don't think that you have any experience of this because firstly multi-million means more than one and last time I looked the 'asset value' here is £2.4mln with a loan of £1.7mln both more than one million. As a Chartered Accountant with very good arithmetic skills I have never been able to predict the outcome of ANY Administration with any certainty and it would be unprofessional of SS to try. I stay with my previous suggestion that I don't think you live in the real world if you expect any different. Furthermore a recent update says an offer has been accepted and that it is in with lawyers anything could come out of that process that could effect the final outcome so once again I think you are being unrealistic.
If you are a Chartered Accountant perhaps you ought to look at the asking price £1.5 million. You also need to look at the statement of affairs available on the company's file and read it in connection with previous updates. Despite the loan being stated as £1.7 million by your definition the only "multi million" pound figure in the statement of affairs is the amount claimed by Lendy Ltd (the only secured creditor) at £2.841 million. BTW not only am I a Chartered Accountant I am also an Insolvency Practitioner with over 30 years experience. Given all of the above information I repeat knowing the offer price and knowing the expenses it only requires rudimentary arithmetic skills to estimate the outcome not the dissembling and obfuscation of SS updates.
|
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 9, 2016 20:35:54 GMT
martin44 : I'm not sure that flow diagram is entirely correct (though I have to assume you have taken it from somewhere authoritative rather than made it up on the hoof :-) ). I thought that there was a level of %age carve out for preferential creditors regardless of the rest (preferential being e.g. outstanding salary, and I wouldn't be surprised if HMRC had a say in their somewhere). EDIT: And for the avoidance of doubt, I am not a chartered accountant, would not make any claim to be so (who would if you weren't :- ) ) and have even less experience than that as either an administrator or insolvency practitioner.
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Sept 9, 2016 20:39:31 GMT
I am not fully au fait with this, is the pic below too simplistic? In the event of an administration , this is the order of realization payments. The figure relates specifically to liquidation and takes no account of preferential creditors but if you insert "insolvency practitioner" for liquidator it is more or less correct.
|
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 9, 2016 20:40:04 GMT
jamesc dualinvestor: Can we ensure that the handbags stay in their holsters please. To mix metaphors.
|
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Sept 9, 2016 20:42:31 GMT
martin44 : I'm not sure that flow diagram is entirely correct (though I have to assume you have taken it from somewhere authoritative rather than made it up on the hoof :-) ). I thought that there was a level of %age carve out for preferential creditors regardless of the rest (preferential being e.g. outstanding salary, and I wouldn't be surprised if HMRC had a say in their somewhere). the link is here.. baileyahmad.co.uk/blog/priority-of-payment-in-liquidation-who-gets-what-and-when/ by all means take a look and comment, as i said i am not au fait with this sort of thing and would welcome further more coherent comments.
|
|
Steerpike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,977
Likes: 1,687
|
Post by Steerpike on Sept 9, 2016 20:47:16 GMT
jamesc dualinvestor : Can we ensure that the handbags stay in their holsters please. To mix metaphors. C'mon, chartered accountant bitch fight? You can't intervene in this!
|
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Sept 9, 2016 20:52:02 GMT
I am not fully au fait with this, is the pic below too simplistic? In the event of an administration , this is the order of realization payments. The figure relates specifically to liquidation and takes no account of preferential creditors but if you insert "insolvency practioner"for liquidator it is correct. apologies, i saw preferential creditors mentioned under floating charge assets. I must stress i am on an exploratory trek here, i have very little experience in this area, but any pertinent info is appreciated, i am a six figure investor in SS and if i can pick posters brains .. then.. 
|
|
littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 1,862
|
Post by littleoldlady on Sept 10, 2016 8:30:57 GMT
BTW not only am I a Chartered Accountant I am also an Insolvency Practitioner with over 30 years experience. Given all of the above information I repeat knowing the offer price and knowing the expenses it only requires rudimentary arithmetic skills to estimate the outcome not the dissembling and obfuscation of SS updates. This is why I think SS have left themselves badly exposed by allowing trading of this loan on the SM, when most (all?) other platforms would have suspended it, if it turns out that lenders do not receive full return of capital.
|
|
