ablender
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Post by ablender on Sept 10, 2016 12:04:09 GMT
BTW not only am I a Chartered Accountant I am also an Insolvency Practitioner with over 30 years experience. Given all of the above information I repeat knowing the offer price and knowing the expenses it only requires rudimentary arithmetic skills to estimate the outcome not the dissembling and obfuscation of SS updates. This is why I think SS have left themselves badly exposed by allowing trading of this loan on the SM, when most (all?) other platforms would have suspended it, if it turns out that lenders do not receive full return of capital. I cannot understand one thing. In the world, there is business of anything. People would buy air from the moon if one had to try to sell it. I think that there is a business in troubled businesses and these get traded as well. It is speculative and it can go wrong. If someone wants to buy a defaulted loan why should SS stop them? There has been a lot of talking on this thread about capital not completely paid back or interest not completely paid back. In reality we do not know what is going to happen, given that this loan is still on old T&C and thus a loan to SS. I do not see SS as having defaulted to the lenders as at the time of this post.
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Post by martin44 on Sept 10, 2016 20:05:30 GMT
This is why I think SS have left themselves badly exposed by allowing trading of this loan on the SM, when most (all?) other platforms would have suspended it, if it turns out that lenders do not receive full return of capital. I cannot understand one thing. In the world, there is business of anything. People would buy air from the moon if one had to try to sell it. I think that there is a business in troubled businesses and these get traded as well. It is speculative and it can go wrong. If someone wants to buy a defaulted loan why should SS stop them? There has been a lot of talking on this thread about capital not completely paid back or interest not completely paid back. In reality we do not know what is going to happen, given that this loan is still on old T&C and thus a loan to SS. I do not see SS as having defaulted to the lenders as at the time of this post. Quite right, but we can hazard a good guess, I am firmly of the belief that no lenders will lose anything, both capitol and interest will be fully paid, IMO down to the old T&Cs and savingstreams often quoted no lenders have ever lost money, a point SS will be keen to retain. There will no doubt be extensive cost's due to the receivers, but IIRC it was stated that the garden centre was operating profitably, and maybe the profits are substantial enough to cover the receiver cost's. BTW.. this pbl is a good example of how an original valuation can be drastically reduced in a default sale, approximately 40%, and that is only assumed due to the current asking price, we do not know the final price that SS has accepted. My bold above.
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Post by dualinvestor on Sept 10, 2016 20:39:49 GMT
I cannot understand one thing. In the world, there is business of anything. People would buy air from the moon if one had to try to sell it. I think that there is a business in troubled businesses and these get traded as well. It is speculative and it can go wrong. If someone wants to buy a defaulted loan why should SS stop them? There has been a lot of talking on this thread about capital not completely paid back or interest not completely paid back. In reality we do not know what is going to happen, given that this loan is still on old T&C and thus a loan to SS. I do not see SS as having defaulted to the lenders as at the time of this post. Quite right, but we can hazard a good guess, I am firmly of the belief that no lenders will lose anything, both capitol and interest will be fully paid, IMO down to the old T&Cs and savingstreams often quoted no lenders have ever lost money, a point SS will be keen to retain. There will no doubt be extensive cost's due to the receivers, but IIRC it was stated that the garden centre was operating profitably, and maybe the profits are substantial enough to cover the receiver cost's. BTW.. this pbl is a good example of how an original valuation can be drastically reduced in a default sale, approximately 40%, and that is only assumed due to the current asking price, we do not know the final price that SS has accepted. My bold above. Nothing is typical about PBL020 and very little can be drawn from the valuations. Several months before the loan a specialist agent in garden centres produced what could be called a "back of a fag packet" valuation that came to £2.4 million, conveniently enough for 70% to be the LTV. It transpires that the garden centre was actually closed either at the time or before the SS borrower purchased it. The land registry records the purchase price by the SS borrower as a tad under £1.5million. Therefore the valuation significantly differed from the purchase price and it would appear to have been more or less wholly paid for by the advance pf Lendy Ltd. The garden centre re-openend, traded for a while, the Planning Permission was denied and the borrower called in the Adminstrators (probably after consulting with Lendy Ltd). The same agents then put the property on the maarket for £1.5 million and we have since been informed that a offer has been accepted and the agent's web site states sale agreed. At the present time no-one has revealed the value of the offer that has been accepted. So while you are right that this is an example of how valuations can be drastically reduced it is unlkely that the true value at the time of the SS loan was anything like £2.4million, on a somewhat cliched valuation ("something is only worth what someone will pay for it") at the time of the original loan it was more like £1.5 million, therefore the LTV in this instance was probably 112% not the 70% as quoted. The purpose of trading the garden centre was to try and preserve its value not make a profit, somewhere amongst the Administrators proposals you can see evidence of the level of trading, it is unlikely that there will be sufficient to cover the costs of supervision let alone the Administrator's (not Receivers) general costs. Edit The statement of affairs shows the secured credtor (Lendy Ltd) as somewhat more than the loan value (£1.7million) as £2.841million.
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Post by martin44 on Sept 10, 2016 20:54:16 GMT
dualinvestor Do you think, as i do. that SS WILL pay all investors in full, capitol and interest?
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Post by dualinvestor on Sept 10, 2016 21:00:50 GMT
dualinvestor Do you think, as i do. that SS WILL pay all investors in full, capitol and interest? I think they probably will because this is under the old T&Cs but it will not set a precedent. It will also depend on their own financial health, the latest financial information on Lendy Ltd is 20 months old, and taking the information in the statement of affairs, the asking price and probable costs they look set to take a bath of around £1.5million on this, without more up to date financial data it is impossible to know whether they can withstand it.
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Post by martin44 on Sept 10, 2016 21:08:28 GMT
dualinvestor Do you think, as i do. that SS WILL pay all investors in full, capitol and interest? I think they probably will because this is under the old T&Cs but it will not set a precedent. It will also depend on their own financial health, the latest financial information on Lendy Ltd is 20 months old, and taking the information in the statement of affairs, the asking price and probable costs they look set to take a bath of around £1.5million on this, without more up to date financial data it is impossible to know whether they can withstand it. I suppose what we do know is that the PF can/would cope at the moment, but with a lot of negative day loans, and indeed a few shaky looking loans, SS could do with moving this out of the way ASAP.
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hantsowl
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Post by hantsowl on Sept 10, 2016 22:06:37 GMT
dualinvestor Do you think, as i do. that SS WILL pay all investors in full, capitol and interest? If SS wish to stick with the claim that "no investor has LOST money" then in theory then simply need to cover any capital loss. Interest can be classed as a gain and providing original investment is covered then no loss will have been made. That being said it is simply my opinion and not anything gleaned from the t&c's.
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mv
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Post by mv on Sept 11, 2016 7:31:40 GMT
If they were intending to pay out interest and capital, I don't understand why SS didn't do this at the start (like they did with their previous default). The interest bill would be much less
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Sept 11, 2016 7:40:17 GMT
If they were intending to pay out interest and capital, I don't understand why SS didn't do this at the start ( like they did with their previous default). The interest bill would be much less No, they didn't. They waited until the property was sold to repay, although IIRC they carried on paying monthly interest during the default period.
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spiral
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Post by spiral on Sept 11, 2016 7:46:19 GMT
dualinvestor Do you think, as i do. that SS WILL pay all investors in full, capitol and interest? I think they probably will because this is under the old T&Cs but it will not set a precedent. I used to agree with this but do wonder why if that was the case: 1. They don't settle now and save themselves the interest. 2. A couple of days ago it was posted that you couldn't buy this loan using credit possibly leaving SS holding the can if you don't pay up. Both of these indicate that SS don't want the risk of holding the loan which in turn makes me think that it is far from clear cut.
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littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Sept 11, 2016 7:55:43 GMT
This is why I think SS have left themselves badly exposed by allowing trading of this loan on the SM, when most (all?) other platforms would have suspended it, if it turns out that lenders do not receive full return of capital. I cannot understand one thing. In the world, there is business of anything. People would buy air from the moon if one had to try to sell it. I think that there is a business in troubled businesses and these get traded as well. It is speculative and it can go wrong. If someone wants to buy a defaulted loan why should SS stop them? There has been a lot of talking on this thread about capital not completely paid back or interest not completely paid back. In reality we do not know what is going to happen, given that this loan is still on old T&C and thus a loan to SS. I do not see SS as having defaulted to the lenders as at the time of this post. Yes, junk bonds and the like. But the SS platform does not allow any price adjustment for risk so would require substantial revision, and judging by the other platforms which do allow discounts it is easy to make a real pig's ear out of this facility. Why should SS stop them? For the same reason that Banks now wish they had stopped people buying PPI insurance.
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Post by dualinvestor on Sept 11, 2016 8:09:29 GMT
If they were intending to pay out interest and capital, I don't understand why SS didn't do this at the start (like they did with their previous default). The interest bill would be much less As they don't compound interest the cost will be the same whether paid now or at conclusion. A reason that they might not have settled the matter now is, if they are genuinely owed £2.841million they may need legal advice on their terms and conditions and whether they rank pari passu with the platform creditors, are subordinate to them or are senior, this will impact on their financial ability to pay any shortfall. Edit Also more simply they might not have £1.7million cash lying around, except in the provision fund which they are committed to replenish to 2% if used, if that is the case they may need the proceeds to help fund any repayment.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Sept 11, 2016 11:33:49 GMT
I cannot understand one thing. In the world, there is business of anything. People would buy air from the moon if one had to try to sell it. I think that there is a business in troubled businesses and these get traded as well. It is speculative and it can go wrong. If someone wants to buy a defaulted loan why should SS stop them? There has been a lot of talking on this thread about capital not completely paid back or interest not completely paid back. In reality we do not know what is going to happen, given that this loan is still on old T&C and thus a loan to SS. I do not see SS as having defaulted to the lenders as at the time of this post. Yes, junk bonds and the like. But the SS platform does not allow any price adjustment for risk so would require substantial revision, and judging by the other platforms which do allow discounts it is easy to make a real pig's ear out of this facility. Why should SS stop them? For the same reason that Banks now wish they had stopped people buying PPI insurance. I think I read or heard somewhere that PPI were sometimes forced onto people or even sold within a package without the person even knowing that they were getting PPI. This will be different than anything on P2P platforms that I know of, including SS.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Sept 11, 2016 12:37:38 GMT
If they were intending to pay out interest and capital, I don't understand why SS didn't do this at the start (like they did with their previous default). The interest bill would be much less As they don't compound interest the cost will be the same whether paid now or at conclusion. dualinvestor: I don't follow. What has compound interest got to do with it? Interest is accruing at £17k/month. I think the idea was that if SS had repaid PBL020 investors three months ago when they declared the loan to be a default they would have been able to do so for £50k less than they could today. Of course, the above only applies if they ultimately repay all investors' capital and accrued interest. And if SS have £1.7M of working capital sitting around spare that they can use without opportunity costs.
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awk
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Post by awk on Sept 11, 2016 12:38:10 GMT
Quite right, but we can hazard a good guess, I am firmly of the belief that no lenders will lose anything, both capitol and interest will be fully paid, IMO down to the old T&Cs and savingstreams often quoted no lenders have ever lost money, a point SS will be keen to retain. There will no doubt be extensive cost's due to the receivers, but IIRC it was stated that the garden centre was operating profitably, and maybe the profits are substantial enough to cover the receiver cost's. BTW.. this pbl is a good example of how an original valuation can be drastically reduced in a default sale, approximately 40%, and that is only assumed due to the current asking price, we do not know the final price that SS has accepted. My bold above. Nothing is typical about PBL020 and very little can be drawn from the valuations. Several months before the loan a specialist agent in garden centres produced what could be called a "back of a fag packet" valuation that came to £2.4 million, conveniently enough for 70% to be the LTV. It transpires that the garden centre was actually closed either at the time or before the SS borrower purchased it. The land registry records the purchase price by the SS borrower as a tad under £1.5million. Therefore the valuation significantly differed from the purchase price and it would appear to have been more or less wholly paid for by the advance pf Lendy Ltd. The garden centre re-openend, traded for a while, the Planning Permission was denied and the borrower called in the Adminstrators (probably after consulting with Lendy Ltd). The same agents then put the property on the maarket for £1.5 million and we have since been informed that a offer has been accepted and the agent's web site states sale agreed. At the present time no-one has revealed the value of the offer that has been accepted. So while you are right that this is an example of how valuations can be drastically reduced it is unlkely that the true value at the time of the SS loan was anything like £2.4million, on a somewhat cliched valuation ("something is only worth what someone will pay for it") at the time of the original loan it was more like £1.5 million, therefore the LTV in this instance was probably 112% not the 70% as quoted. The purpose of trading the garden centre was to try and preserve its value not make a profit, somewhere amongst the Administrators proposals you can see evidence of the level of trading, it is unlikely that there will be sufficient to cover the costs of supervision let alone the Administrator's (not Receivers) general costs. Edit The statement of affairs shows the secured credtor (Lendy Ltd) as somewhat more than the loan value (£1.7million) as £2.841million. I've been trying to get my head around the £2.841m. Might the difference somehow be connected to the 10% shareholding which SS appear to have? although, I don't see how that would be as a secured creditor? - any accountants out there? I asked SS the question, but didn't get a response. I'm only in this one for £1 (plus 3p accrued interest), but it's a bit of a mystery and solving it would help me understand how SS work in the background.
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