p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Jan 23, 2021 14:35:09 GMT
I do P2P lending and stockmarket trading full-time and they are my exclusive source of income. I don't have a formally set-up business for this.
I'm just doing my self-assessment return and wondering if the costs I incur for P2P lending - they're not much, but things like the cost of buying and repairing a computer etc. - could be treated as expenses and offset against my income for tax purposes?
Or does P2P lending not allow one to claim expenses?
Cheers.
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p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Jan 23, 2021 14:54:48 GMT
Also, am I technically a 'Sole Trader' or are there other requirements to qualify for that? (I've studied definitions of a Sole Trader in the UK and seem to qualify.)
Apologies for these basic questions.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 23, 2021 15:06:33 GMT
Also, am I technically a 'Sole Trader' or are there other requirements to qualify for that? (I've studied definitions of a Sole Trader in the UK and seem to qualify.) Apologies for these basic questions. www.gov.uk/set-up-sole-traderA few hoops to jump through it seems. Click on the self employed link as well, from what you said it doesn't look like you would qualify as self employed (although I know nothing except what I just read!). I don't think you can claim expenses as an individual.
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Post by mfaxford on Jan 23, 2021 15:30:56 GMT
Also, am I technically a 'Sole Trader' or are there other requirements to qualify for that? (I've studied definitions of a Sole Trader in the UK and seem to qualify.) Apologies for these basic questions. It's been a while since I looked at any of this (and not in terms of P2P / Stock trading profits). If you're registered as self-employed then you can claim certain expenses related to the course of work against your profits, from memory this is detailed on a separate sheet related to being self employed. Doing this as a business (sole-trader/self-employed) might have other things to be aware of (such as National Insurance Contributions). With what you're describing I think you would fall under the terms self-employed and sole-trader, although in terms of tax I think self-employed is probably the better description. If you just treat income from P2P and Stocks as Interest / Capital Gains etc. then I don't think you would need to be classed as a sole-trader or self-employed but then I don't think you could claim any expenses related to that activity. You probably need to talk to HMRC or a tax adviser if you want to try something clever. I'm definitely neither of those and it's been a while since I did any self-assessment stuff and rules have certainly changed since then.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Jan 23, 2021 19:08:09 GMT
I do P2P lending and stockmarket trading full-time and they are my exclusive source of income. I don't have a formally set-up business for this. I'm just doing my self-assessment return and wondering if the costs I incur for P2P lending - they're not much, but things like the cost of buying and repairing a computer etc. - could be treated as expenses and offset against my income for tax purposes? Or does P2P lending not allow one to claim expenses? Cheers. Best advice I can offer is to find yourself a good accountant / tax advisor; you might be surprised at what can be claimed against and to what extent - use of home as office, broadband, any subscription fees you might have, etc, etc. If claiming against those expenses aren't available to you in your current position, it might be that they could be sufficiently large to make it worthwhile putting your activities on a more formalised footing. Needn't be expensive and you might need only use him / her the once and then use that advice as a template moving forward. Could be that the savings outweigh their fee, but - more importantly, IMO - you'll have greater assurance that what you are doing is right and so potentially avoid a nasty surprise in seven years time should HMRC decide to knock on your door. (PS: As per mfaxford 's post; if you are in a position where you could / should still be making NIC's then at the very least be confident you have any requirement there covered.)
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p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Jan 24, 2021 13:06:02 GMT
Thanks for the advice everyone.
One thing I should have clarified is I'm only investing my own savings, so not doing it for anyone else.
Having spent a good few hours yesterday researching the situation, it seems like we can only claim expenses if we are running a business, either as a Sole Trade or as an incorporated company, and it has been declared as thus to HMRC. However, with all the red tape and administration either option would involve and with the relatively few expenses that HMRC guidelines enable one to claim these days, for me personally that is not worth all the hassle.
But the rules don't seem to be clear. I would welcome what other P2Pers are doing in terms of offsetting expenses for managing their own P2P investments against taxes.
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aju
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Post by aju on Jan 26, 2021 16:03:53 GMT
My own take on it is that one can only claim P2P losses against the gains in each individual P2P platform in other words I cannot claim losses from defaults in Zopa against gains in RS and vice versa but since we are increasingly covering our minimal tax burden by either p2p ISA's and investing only in Mrs Aju - whose tax burden is nil at this time - so we are not that affected. In fact this year I notified the tax man used last years interest which was much higher than this years estimate (it will be under £1000 for both of us) as the rates have dwindled in banking and we have all but bailed out of P2P for the time being. I told them this using our HMRC account (We both have workplace pension which almost categorises us similar to to PAYE) Neither of us has been asked to complete a self assesment as our tax affairs are somewhat basic to say the least.
Mind you one could not consider me to be an expert in this area just someone who has advised HMRC or our tax positions for last 10 years as things change and they always seemed happy and declared as such. That said the returns on Zopa and RS and others are probably already being passed to HMRC as are interest from banks etc so they will be aware if not capable of monitoring this sector at an individual level. They do still get these numbers incorrect and I occasionally advise of our changing circumstances.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 26, 2021 16:14:40 GMT
My own take on it is that one can only claim P2P losses against the gains in each individual P2P platform in other words I cannot claim losses from defaults in Zopa against gains in RS and vice versa but since we are increasingly covering our minimal tax burden by either p2p ISA's and investing only in Mrs Aju - whose tax burden is nil at this time - so we are not that affected. In fact this year I notified the tax man used last years interest which was much higher than this years estimate (it will be under £1000 for both of us) as the rates have dwindled in banking and we have all but bailed out of P2P for the time being. I told them this using our HMRC account (We both have workplace pension which almost categorises us similar to to PAYE) Neither of us has been asked to complete a self assesment as our tax affairs are somewhat basic to say the least. Mind you one could not consider me to be an expert in this area just someone who has advised HMRC or our tax positions for last 10 years as things change and they always seemed happy and declared as such. That said the returns on Zopa and RS and others are probably already being passed to HMRC as are interest from banks etc so they will be aware if not capable of monitoring this sector at an individual level. They do still get these numbers incorrect and I occasionally advise of our changing circumstances. Your take is not correct. While losses have to be offset against income on the same platform initially, if losses are over & above income on that platform sideways relief is available so losses can be offset against income on another platform. (SAIM12130) However, sideways relief needs to be claimed through a tax return Similarly if losses across all platforms are greater than income, relief can be carried forward for up to 4 years, again through a tax return (SAIM12140) I suspect in the circumstances you have suggested it is unlikely to be relevant in your case. You are correct that Zopa & RS should be providing your net income to HMRC ie platform income minus losses declared by the platform and as such standard relief should be given automatically ie no tax return required. Obviously if you wish to claim any losses not declared by the platform ie those self determined as treatable you would need to complete a tax return Usual caveats
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Post by Ace on Jan 26, 2021 16:18:23 GMT
There's a fairly helpful guide on this on 4thway here.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 26, 2021 16:18:55 GMT
My own take on it is that one can only claim P2P losses against the gains in each individual P2P platform in other words I cannot claim losses from defaults in Zopa against gains in RS and vice versa but since we are increasingly covering our minimal tax burden by either p2p ISA's and investing only in Mrs Aju - whose tax burden is nil at this time - so we are not that affected. In fact this year I notified the tax man used last years interest which was much higher than this years estimate (it will be under £1000 for both of us) as the rates have dwindled in banking and we have all but bailed out of P2P for the time being. I told them this using our HMRC account (We both have workplace pension which almost categorises us similar to to PAYE) Neither of us has been asked to complete a self assesment as our tax affairs are somewhat basic to say the least. Mind you one could not consider me to be an expert in this area just someone who has advised HMRC or our tax positions for last 10 years as things change and they always seemed happy and declared as such. That said the returns on Zopa and RS and others are probably already being passed to HMRC as are interest from banks etc so they will be aware if not capable of monitoring this sector at an individual level. They do still get these numbers incorrect and I occasionally advise of our changing circumstances. Your take is not correct. While losses have to be offset against income on the same platform initially, if losses are over & above income on that platform sideways relief is available so losses can be offset against income on another platform. (SAIM12030) However, sideways relief needs to be claimed through a tax returnSimilarly if losses across all platforms are greater than income, relief can be carried forward for up to 4 years, a gain through a tax return (SAIM12040)I suspect in the circumstances you have suggested it is unlikely to be relevant in your case. Usual caveats Agree with most of this, except confused by the bolded bits. Most (all?) p2p is not taxed at source. Therefore the only way it is taxed is through declaration on a tax return. I see no requirement, and specifically no mechanism through self assessment, to differentiation between declaration of income and losses through p2p, and no way to declare sideways relief as opposed to any other, and indeed no requirement to document carry forward within the tax return (in fact the guidance specifically says this latter bit is not required).
EDIT: now i'm reading this in thread context, were you talking about company rather than individual returns ?
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 26, 2021 16:28:08 GMT
Your take is not correct. While losses have to be offset against income on the same platform initially, if losses are over & above income on that platform sideways relief is available so losses can be offset against income on another platform. (SAIM12030) However, sideways relief needs to be claimed through a tax returnSimilarly if losses across all platforms are greater than income, relief can be carried forward for up to 4 years, a gain through a tax return (SAIM12040)I suspect in the circumstances you have suggested it is unlikely to be relevant in your case. Usual caveats Agree with most of this, except confused by the bolded bits. Most (all?) p2p is not taxed at source. Therefore the only way it is taxed is through declaration on a tax return. I see no requirement, and specifically no mechanism through self assessment, to differentiation between declaration of income and losses through p2p, and no way to declare sideways relief as opposed to any other, and indeed no requirement to document carry forward within the tax return (in fact the guidance specifically says this latter bit is not required).
EDIT: now i'm reading this in thread context, were you talking about company rather than individual returns ?
I was talking about individual returns and merely following the statements made in the HMRC guidance which are clear that a tax return is required for anything except same platform losses. You are right that there is no specific mechanism in a tax return to idenfify claims under sideways or carried forward relief so records should be kept in the event of query
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 26, 2021 16:31:19 GMT
Agree with most of this, except confused by the bolded bits. Most (all?) p2p is not taxed at source. Therefore the only way it is taxed is through declaration on a tax return. I see no requirement, and specifically no mechanism through self assessment, to differentiation between declaration of income and losses through p2p, and no way to declare sideways relief as opposed to any other, and indeed no requirement to document carry forward within the tax return (in fact the guidance specifically says this latter bit is not required).
EDIT: now i'm reading this in thread context, were you talking about company rather than individual returns ?
I was talking about individual returns and merely following the statements made in t he HMRC guidance which are clear that a tax return is required for anything except same platform losses. You are right that there is no specific mechanism in a tax return. Ah yes, I think you are right. I do recall the original draft guidance (and by implication of your statement presumably final guidance) saying this. But in practise, its a 'nothing', since assuming no tax deducted at source, the only thing you can declare is a single aggregate cross platform loss relief included number. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.
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aju
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Post by aju on Jan 26, 2021 16:58:12 GMT
My own take on it is that one can only claim P2P losses against the gains in each individual P2P platform in other words I cannot claim losses from defaults in Zopa against gains in RS and vice versa but since we are increasingly covering our minimal tax burden by either p2p ISA's and investing only in Mrs Aju - whose tax burden is nil at this time - so we are not that affected. In fact this year I notified the tax man used last years interest which was much higher than this years estimate (it will be under £1000 for both of us) as the rates have dwindled in banking and we have all but bailed out of P2P for the time being. I told them this using our HMRC account (We both have workplace pension which almost categorises us similar to to PAYE) Neither of us has been asked to complete a self assesment as our tax affairs are somewhat basic to say the least. Mind you one could not consider me to be an expert in this area just someone who has advised HMRC or our tax positions for last 10 years as things change and they always seemed happy and declared as such. That said the returns on Zopa and RS and others are probably already being passed to HMRC as are interest from banks etc so they will be aware if not capable of monitoring this sector at an individual level. They do still get these numbers incorrect and I occasionally advise of our changing circumstances. Your take is not correct. While losses have to be offset against income on the same platform initially, if losses are over & above income on that platform sideways relief is available so losses can be offset against income on another platform. (SAIM12030) However, sideways relief needs to be claimed through a tax return Similarly if losses across all platforms are greater than income, relief can be carried forward for up to 4 years, again through a tax return (SAIM12040) I suspect in the circumstances you have suggested it is unlikely to be relevant in your case. Usual caveats Thanks for the correction, my take was somewhat limited I admit as RS have not actually cost me any losses as such anyway and now won't with the dregs left behind there. The other aspect as you suggest is that I don't have enough of the losses to not be covered anyway by a single platform. Interesting perhaps for a better time in the future to bear this in mind and also when Mrs Aju does come in above the taxable threshold and can no longer use her for our tax reducing. Another aspect at present is that with rates so low everywhere we have punted quite a bit of spare fund into NS&I so tax is not an issue there. Slight aside we won £25 this month on our first 5 figure batch invested in November. The SAIM's you provided may be useful going forward i've noted them in my Tax spreadsheet although not sure I want to be rsed with tax returns (even though they are probably only adding a single sheet to the main return) the other aspect is that p2p will have to both survive and also become viable again I guess - I mean in terms of risk etc for return. Edit: Crossed over the above post but I agree with bracknellboy and ilmoro regarding good records I can produce records of all our tax generating accounts and amounts going back years but I guess that's just pedantic me.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 26, 2021 17:05:16 GMT
Your take is not correct. While losses have to be offset against income on the same platform initially, if losses are over & above income on that platform sideways relief is available so losses can be offset against income on another platform. (SAIM12030) However, sideways relief needs to be claimed through a tax return Similarly if losses across all platforms are greater than income, relief can be carried forward for up to 4 years, again through a tax return (SAIM12040) I suspect in the circumstances you have suggested it is unlikely to be relevant in your case. Usual caveats Thanks for the correction, my take was somewhat limited I admit as RS have not actually cost me any losses as such anyway and now won't with the dregs left behind there. The other aspect as you suggest is that I don't have enough of the losses to not be covered anyway by a single platform. Interesting perhaps for a better time in the future to bear this in mind and also when Mrs Aju does come in above the taxable threshold and can no longer use her for our tax reducing. Another aspect at present is that with rates so low everywhere we have punted quite a bit of spare fund into NS&I so tax is not an issue there. Slight aside we won £25 this month on our first 5 figure batch invested in November. The SAIM's you provided may be useful going forward i've noted them in my Tax spreadsheet although not sure I want to be rsed with tax returns (even though they are probably only adding a single sheet to the main return) the other aspect is that p2p will have to both survive and also become viable again I guess - I mean in terms of risk etc for return. Crossed over the above but I agree with bracknellboy and ilmoro regarding good records I can produce records of all our tax generating accounts and amounts going back years but I guess that's just pedantic me. FYI Ive updated & corrected my OP as the SAIM missed out the 1s, should be 12130, 12140
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