bernythedolt
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 6, 2021 2:36:16 GMT
In a marvellous irony I picked up from a little snippet on Countdown this week, it seems the mile was a base-10 measure given to us by the Europeans in the first place! Susie Dent told us:- The mille passus was the standard 1000 paces marched by a Roman soldier (where a pace was two steps). Mille became the mile when they brought it over here. So never mind this johnny-come-lately kilometre nonsense, I can continue using miles with a completely clear conscience now. she /might/ have that wrong. The 1000 paces is right, but I see it is equated to 5000 feet. So not sure how a 'pace' can translate to two steps. Still, the use of 1000 is about the limit of any base 10 in there. So not really 'base 10' unfortunately. Under English patronage, it was then broken down into a system based around the Barleycorn. I was going to bring this up earlier in the discussion, when @bobo was talking about the merits of inches when it came to fractions: an entirely separate line of discussion I declined to pick up on. But hell....so the Barley corn is one third of an inch..which blows the whole inches = good for fractions out the water, as its sub-units are not the nice base 2 divisors we are familiar with, yeilding the popular 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. 1/16 th sequence, but in fact 1/3 rds. If you have in the slightest interest as to how many 'poppyseeds' there are in a barleycorn, or indeed how many barley corn there are in a 'palm' (a straight base 3 calculation, so a bit of consistentcy for two levels at least), or how many 'gunter's chains' make up a furlong (10 !!! we found a 10 !!) then the link below is mildly interesting. One thing that is interesting in there (more so than the 1760 yards to a mile), is the straight line between Barleycorn, inch, palm and span. This at least would have been a system working on base 3. Perhaps this particular part was invented by someone who had an unfortunate accident with a scythe. Admittedly it breaks down once you try to progress from a span to a cubit or an ell, (x2 and x5 respectively). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_units#/media/File:English_Length_Units_Graph.svgEvidently a "pace" was defined as a double-step back then. Each time the left foot hit the ground was considered to be one pace, approx 5 ft. 1,000 paces, approx one mile. I doubt Susie Dent, Oxford & Princeton, lexicographer and etymologist, has got it wrong. Me, on the other hand, quite likely. That base 3 system obviously gained traction because even today 1/3rd of a pint is still a legal measure in the pub, as is 2/3rds. I don't see many of us rushing out on lockdown freedom day to celebrate over 1/3rd of a pint, but it is on my bucket list to order 2/3rds of a pint sometime before I die, just to gauge the reaction. You get crankier when you turn OAP.
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ptr120
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Post by ptr120 on Mar 6, 2021 6:09:50 GMT
don't think wickes has changed its size of offerring since Jan 1st....nope, definitely not. No but either I've explained badly or you have misunderstood. Pints of milk might be easier. I can buy a carton of 6 pints but it is displayed as 3.408 litres. That display is what is given prominence. We don't typically buy 3L of milk in the UK. So what I think will change (and seemingly has changed already in Wickes) is that in future the label on the milk will say "6 Pints" with perhaps the 3.408L displayed too buy less noticeably. The size of the offering hasn't changed. Its always been 4 inches by 2 inches or 6 pints. Its just about how it is labelled. You still seem to be implying that the law has recently changed in this area and that this is a Brexit benefit. The law in this area hasn't changed, and this isn't a Brexit benefit.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 6, 2021 12:38:41 GMT
Nothing's changed at all there... Milk was always (mostly) sold in mental non-round-number containers because they happened to be round in a unit that wasn't used. Same for wood etc. Although... why are some sheets 2400 x 1200 and some 2440 x 1220?
Anyway, I've just been looking online at greenhouse staging. 7'7" by 22". I kid you not... 2,311mm x 556mm
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 6, 2021 12:51:16 GMT
Nothing's changed at all there... Milk was always (mostly) sold in mental non-round-number containers because they happened to be round in a unit that wasn't used. Same for wood etc. Although... why are some sheets 2400 x 1200 and some 2440 x 1220? Anyway, I've just been looking online at greenhouse staging. 7'7" by 22". I kid you not... 2,311mm x 556mm Presumably to fit inside an 8ft long greenhouse with about 2ft width either side of the door (8ft by 6ft greenhouse?)
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 6, 2021 13:16:09 GMT
Anyway, I've just been looking online at greenhouse staging. 7'7" by 22". I kid you not... 2,311mm x 556mm Presumably to fit inside an 8ft long greenhouse with about 2ft width either side of the door (8ft by 6ft greenhouse?) Fit very, VERY loosely...
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 6, 2021 13:50:17 GMT
No but either I've explained badly or you have misunderstood. Pints of milk might be easier. I can buy a carton of 6 pints but it is displayed as 3.408 litres. That display is what is given prominence. We don't typically buy 3L of milk in the UK. So what I think will change (and seemingly has changed already in Wickes) is that in future the label on the milk will say "6 Pints" with perhaps the 3.408L displayed too buy less noticeably. The size of the offering hasn't changed. Its always been 4 inches by 2 inches or 6 pints. Its just about how it is labelled. You still seem to be implying that the law has recently changed in this area and that this is a Brexit benefit. The law in this area hasn't changed, and this isn't a Brexit benefit. It has but whether its a Brexit benefit or not is of course subjective. I say it is. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37339389<my bold> Since June's Brexit vote, a number of companies, ranging from butchers to wine merchants, have said they would relish the chance to be able to trade in imperial units.
Simon Berry, chairman of Berry Bros & Rudd, has gone as far as to say it is his lifetime's ambition to sell champagne in pint-sized bottles - currently outlawed in the UK - and in his words to reclaim it from "rules-obsessed bureaucrats".
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 6, 2021 13:56:03 GMT
Nothing's changed at all there... Milk was always (mostly) sold in mental non-round-number containers because they happened to be round in a unit that wasn't used. Same for wood etc. Although... why are some sheets 2400 x 1200 and some 2440 x 1220? Anyway, I've just been looking online at greenhouse staging. 7'7" by 22". I kid you not... 2,311mm x 556mm Not quite sure I follow you. As for why sheet material is typically cut in metric and sawn timber batons cut in imperial I don't know. Its like miles and metres. But what I can assure you HAS changed is my local Wickes selling sawn timber batons in imperial. Made it a lot easier getting my 2x1s Online hasn't changed (yet).
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 6, 2021 13:56:22 GMT
Presumably to fit inside an 8ft long greenhouse with about 2ft width either side of the door (8ft by 6ft greenhouse?) Fit very, VERY loosely... I think the greenhouse dimensions are external and the cross bracing takes up about an inch each end internally, but not exactly an engineering fit.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 6, 2021 16:14:08 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 6, 2021 16:33:29 GMT
Who he is and what he said was clearly not relevant to my quote as I highlighted the part the BBC themselves or at least the BBC journalist writing the article made. The BBC article said [the practice] "is currently outlawed in the UK." Why would you want to twist what I was trying to say? And secondly are you really of the belief that every single situation related to brexit - every single one out of thousands and thousands - would have been better had we remained in the EU? Every single one? Its not just credible. I certainly don't believe in the converse of that. Its a similar situation with the government. Some people believe that every single decision taken by every minsiter at any time since the Tories took power was the wrong decision. They never made a single agreeable decision. Again not credible. Why not say what _you_ think is right at every step of the political way. If you did that you'd probably find a few times you agreed with the Tories and a few times (out of thousands) you'd think maybe on that issue we are better out of the EU. I wish we would stop this brain dead tribalism that appears everywhere (including my family, friends and ex work colleagues)
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 6, 2021 16:43:01 GMT
Who he is and what he said was clearly not relevant to my quote as I highlighted the part the BBC themselves or at least the BBC journalist writing the article made. The BBC article said [the practice] "is currently outlawed in the UK." Why would you want to twist what I was trying to say? And secondly are you really of the belief that every single situation related to brexit - every single one out of thousands and thousands - would have been better had we remained in the EU? Every single one? Its not just credible. I certainly don't believe in the converse of that. Its a similar situation with the government. Some people believe that every single decision taken by every minsiter at any time since the Tories took power was the wrong decision. They never made a single agreeable decision. Again not credible. Why not say what _you_ think is right at every step of the political way. If you did that you'd probably find a few times you agreed with the Tories and a few times (out of thousands) you'd think maybe on that issue we are better out of the EU. I wish we would stop this brain dead tribalism that appears everywhere (including my family, friends and ex work colleagues) Like I said - it's a 2016 article. At the time, he was chair. He retired three and a bit years ago. Metrication has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit. There is one country in the world that is not metricated... and one that's trying to deny it is. The UK government started officially metricating in the 60s. The US government started officially metricating in the 70s.
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Post by df on Mar 6, 2021 18:00:12 GMT
Just been to Wickes and noticed they are selling timber with the imperial measurement at least if not more prominently than the metric which makes sense because most builders still refer to sawn timber as "4 by 2" etc and they are all sized in imperial and converted. So you never see 20x30mm for example but 19x32mm instead. I think this is one albeit very small benefit of leaving the EU and highlights one of the many stupid things the Commision has done to "harmonise" stuff across the EU paying little attention to the cultures and practices that have been going on in those countries for centuries. I personally prefer metric system - much simpler. The other benefit is - it is used globally. I don't really understand how returning to imperial measurements can be beneficial. I hope re-introduction of shilling is not on the menu
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 6, 2021 19:30:41 GMT
Just been to Wickes and noticed they are selling timber with the imperial measurement at least if not more prominently than the metric which makes sense because most builders still refer to sawn timber as "4 by 2" etc and they are all sized in imperial and converted. So you never see 20x30mm for example but 19x32mm instead. I think this is one albeit very small benefit of leaving the EU and highlights one of the many stupid things the Commision has done to "harmonise" stuff across the EU paying little attention to the cultures and practices that have been going on in those countries for centuries. I personally prefer metric system - much simpler. The other benefit is - it is used globally. I don't really understand how returning to imperial measurements can be beneficial. I hope re-introduction of shilling is not on the menu Now that is a fair point IMO (whether its a good idea or not). I'm not sure but speaking selfishly I'd rather miles stayed and one or two others. I certainly would NOT want to go back to half crowns (whatever they are) any anything else like that and I also have no interest in nostalgia. My original point was that a few select and perhaps even niche items have always been spoken about and measured in Imperial and Wickes were simply reflecting that as they are now allowed to do so and that IMO is a good thing.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 6, 2021 20:23:29 GMT
I personally prefer metric system - much simpler. The other benefit is - it is used globally. I don't really understand how returning to imperial measurements can be beneficial. I hope re-introduction of shilling is not on the menu Now that is a fair point IMO (whether its a good idea or not). I'm not sure but speaking selfishly I'd rather miles stayed and one or two others. I certainly would NOT want to go back to half crowns (whatever they are) any anything else like that and I also have no interest in nostalgia. My original point was that a few select and perhaps even niche items have always been spoken about and measured in Imperial and Wickes were simply reflecting that as they are now allowed to do so and that IMO is a good thing. A half crown was two (shillings) and sixpence.
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ptr120
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Post by ptr120 on Mar 6, 2021 22:10:47 GMT
My original point was that a few select and perhaps even niche items have always been spoken about and measured in Imperial and Wickes were simply reflecting that as they are now allowed to do so and that IMO is a good thing. But they were allowed before, and they are allowed today en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Martyrs . That this might be 'good' that people can buy things in a unit that they have never been educated in is dubious to say the least, but may have some benefits for historical / backwards compatibility reasons; but to say that this is a good thing that is now allowed because of Brexit is misleading to say the least.
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