adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 9, 2023 21:52:47 GMT
although particularly stupid if you gift it and then continue to live in it without paying a fair market rent, such that you have not a hope in hell of avoiding it being counted as part of your estate on death while at the same time being at risk of being kicked out of it by the person you gifted it to. This is something the particularly wealthy might do: i.e. gift property that is not their main residence. Gifting your main residence is rarely going to work, unless you are prepared to a) make rental payments to continue living in it and b) are willing to take the risk you might be asked to vacate your home. For these reasons it is in fact rarely done. The period is simple in law... its 7 years. For IHT, yes - tapering over years 3-7. But deprivation of assets for care costs has no time limit.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 10, 2023 6:10:57 GMT
although particularly stupid if you gift it and then continue to live in it without paying a fair market rent, such that you have not a hope in hell of avoiding it being counted as part of your estate on death while at the same time being at risk of being kicked out of it by the person you gifted it to. This is something the particularly wealthy might do: i.e. gift property that is not their main residence. Gifting your main residence is rarely going to work, unless you are prepared to a) make rental payments to continue living in it and b) are willing to take the risk you might be asked to vacate your home. For these reasons it is in fact rarely done. The period is simple in law... its 7 years. You are right that the "law" is simple: for IHT purposes, if you continue to live in it without paying a fair market rent, and certainly if you live in it rent free, then it will almost certainly be deemed to be a "gift with reservation of benefit". With the result that the 7 year gifting clock will never be deemed to have even started. Still, since this has now been pointed out to you several times, you are of course free to do your IHT planning on whatever false premise you wish to.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jul 10, 2023 11:52:04 GMT
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jul 10, 2023 11:59:31 GMT
No flies on you this morning 
Looking at the article 'He has 19 previous convictions for 23 offences, including a dwelling house burglary, thefts and repeated breaches of court orders'. Makes you wonder why he wasn't banged up first time around
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Post by spareapennyor2 on Jul 10, 2023 12:40:06 GMT
5 months so might do 12 weeks?
The time has come to grass the mettle and deal with the consequences. ( hardly worth it 170 hrs per 10 hours a week =17 weeks)
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 10, 2023 12:45:22 GMT
No flies on you this morning
Looking at the article 'He has 19 previous convictions for 23 offences, including a dwelling house burglary, thefts and repeated breaches of court orders'. Makes you wonder why he wasn't banged up first time around
It does but....non-violent offences, prison population that is bulging, and an incarceration rate that is probably/is the highest of the major (and most minor) european countries (for example almost double that of Germany, about 30% higher than France) and much higher (say roughly 2.5 x) than that of Sandanavian countries. And sadly, alcohol and drug additions (if I read correctly) are unlikely to be helped by being in prison. Certainly not drugs.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 10, 2023 12:56:03 GMT
No flies on you this morning
Looking at the article 'He has 19 previous convictions for 23 offences, including a dwelling house burglary, thefts and repeated breaches of court orders'. Makes you wonder why he wasn't banged up first time around
It does but....non-violent offences, prison population that is bulging, and an incarceration rate that is probably/is the highest of the major (and most minor) european countries (for example almost double that of Germany, about 30% higher than France) and much higher (say roughly 2.5 x) than that of Sandanavian countries. And sadly, alcohol and drug additions (if I read correctly) are unlikely to be helped by being in prison. Certainly not drugs. Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. But handling stolen goods encompasses a huge range IMO. I mean if I was minding my own business in a pub and someone came along to offer me the latest smart phone for say £300 cash it would be wrong to accept it and I definitely would not do so these days. However back when I was a student I might have been tempted.
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Jul 10, 2023 14:49:15 GMT
It does but....non-violent offences, prison population that is bulging, and an incarceration rate that is probably/is the highest of the major (and most minor) european countries (for example almost double that of Germany, about 30% higher than France) and much higher (say roughly 2.5 x) than that of Sandanavian countries. And sadly, alcohol and drug additions (if I read correctly) are unlikely to be helped by being in prison. Certainly not drugs. Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. But handling stolen goods encompasses a huge range IMO. I mean if I was minding my own business in a pub and someone came along to offer me the latest smart phone for say £300 cash it would be wrong to accept it and I definitely would not do so these days. However back when I was a student I might have been tempted. I doubt very much that mobile phones had been invented back then 
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 10, 2023 15:54:16 GMT
It does but....non-violent offences, prison population that is bulging, and an incarceration rate that is probably/is the highest of the major (and most minor) european countries (for example almost double that of Germany, about 30% higher than France) and much higher (say roughly 2.5 x) than that of Sandanavian countries. And sadly, alcohol and drug additions (if I read correctly) are unlikely to be helped by being in prison. Certainly not drugs. Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. Or perhaps address the actual problems... The issue isn't we're not locking enough people up, because of lack of space. The issue is that there's no space because we're locking too many up. Why are there so many more inside here than Germany?
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 10, 2023 16:25:06 GMT
It does but....non-violent offences, prison population that is bulging, and an incarceration rate that is probably/is the highest of the major (and most minor) european countries (for example almost double that of Germany, about 30% higher than France) and much higher (say roughly 2.5 x) than that of Sandanavian countries. And sadly, alcohol and drug additions (if I read correctly) are unlikely to be helped by being in prison. Certainly not drugs. Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. .. Or perhaps take a look at ourselves and figure out why we are incarcerating so many more than other equivalent European countries. Unless its another case of British exceptionalism: we do porridge much better than those europeans. It is interesting to look at the data. even though I knew we locked up far more than others in europe, it is surprising. Of large, similar european countries the only ones who chuck more in jail are likes of Poland and Hungary. Except of course for Russia and Belarus, that are another step up altogether. But then I doubt many of us would consider their example to be 'aspirational'. England and Wales: 136 per 100,000 France: 106 Italy: 97 Belgium: 91 Germany; 67 NL: 66 and don't get onto the scandanavian countries Something broken here, unless we're the only ones getting it right. Which based on comparative crime figures, if the intent is to deter and/or prevent we aren't. EDIT: More prisons and more prisoners and more prison staff also equals more state spending and higher taxes. Not sure any party ever actually campaigned on an explicit manifesto commitment of "a penny on income tax to lock more people up". Just on "build more prisons and lock more up".
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jul 10, 2023 16:25:31 GMT
Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. Or perhaps address the actual problems... The issue isn't we're not locking enough people up, because of lack of space. The issue is that there's no space because we're locking too many up. Why are there so many more inside here than Germany?A breakdown in the moral fabric of society?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 10, 2023 18:15:44 GMT
Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. .. Or perhaps take a look at ourselves and figure out why we are incarcerating so many more than other equivalent European countries. Unless its another case of British exceptionalism: we do porridge much better than those europeans. It is interesting to look at the data. even though I knew we locked up far more than others in europe, it is surprising. Of large, similar european countries the only ones who chuck more in jail are likes of Poland and Hungary. Except of course for Russia and Belarus, that are another step up altogether. But then I doubt many of us would consider their example to be 'aspirational'. England and Wales: 136 per 100,000 France: 106 Italy: 97 Belgium: 91 Germany; 67 NL: 66 and don't get onto the scandanavian countries Something broken here, unless we're the only ones getting it right. Which based on comparative crime figures, if the intent is to deter and/or prevent we aren't. EDIT: More prisons and more prisoners and more prison staff also equals more state spending and higher taxes. Not sure any party ever actually campaigned on an explicit manifesto commitment of "a penny on income tax to lock more people up". Just on "build more prisons and lock more up". According to the logical conclusion of your argument we should empty the prisons and put nobody in them. That would look great for the stats. What I am saying is we shouldn't adjust sentencing policy based upon prison capacity. If the prisons are full and overcrowded we clearly need to build more.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jul 10, 2023 19:02:16 GMT
Need to build more prisons if there are not enough spaces. Or perhaps address the actual problems... The issue isn't we're not locking enough people up, because of lack of space. The issue is that there's no space because we're locking too many up. Why are there so many more inside here than Germany?Because it's nowhere near a valid comparison, SO many differing variables between the two countries, you're comparing a banana with a doughnut. I'm surprised at your "logic" adrianc Or lack of it ......
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jul 10, 2023 20:07:36 GMT
We do compare very favourable to the US of A at 629 per 100,000.
I wonder how we compare to the rest of Europe by Offence type for example 1 in 4 in the UK is in jail for Violence, 1 in 8 is drugs, now I guess the majority of that is low level dealing/possession.
I also assume the numbers for not paying TV licence/Council tax is actually very low
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 10, 2023 20:08:19 GMT
Or perhaps take a look at ourselves and figure out why we are incarcerating so many more than other equivalent European countries. Unless its another case of British exceptionalism: we do porridge much better than those europeans. It is interesting to look at the data. even though I knew we locked up far more than others in europe, it is surprising. Of large, similar european countries the only ones who chuck more in jail are likes of Poland and Hungary. Except of course for Russia and Belarus, that are another step up altogether. But then I doubt many of us would consider their example to be 'aspirational'. England and Wales: 136 per 100,000 France: 106 Italy: 97 Belgium: 91 Germany; 67 NL: 66 and don't get onto the scandanavian countries Something broken here, unless we're the only ones getting it right. Which based on comparative crime figures, if the intent is to deter and/or prevent we aren't. EDIT: More prisons and more prisoners and more prison staff also equals more state spending and higher taxes. Not sure any party ever actually campaigned on an explicit manifesto commitment of "a penny on income tax to lock more people up". Just on "build more prisons and lock more up". That would look great for the stats. What I am saying is we shouldn't adjust sentencing policy based upon prison capacity. If the prisons are full and overcrowded we clearly need to build more. actually I've said no such thing. Not on any level. You may want to re-read. Not that I would expect you to bother. I've commented only on the overall "total system" / Societal situation. We have a significantly higher incarceration rates than most comparable countries. If we had significantly lower levels of crime then an answer could be surmised that is because we deter and prevent through prison. But we don't. That implies something is broken. Unless of course your objective is simply to have as many of the citizens of the country locked up as possible without there being any reason. Which I doubt is many people's objectives. If we have 2.5x the incarceration rate of say Germany, should we not be curious about that ? If we have 30% more than France, should we not be curious about why ? If we are (from memory) 3x that of Scandanavian countries should we not be curious about that ? Yet we still have higher crime rates. So if our actual objective is lower crime, less impact on society resulting from crime (both the act of, and the side effects) then shouldn't we look at ourselves in comparison and ask what we can learn ? Higher crime, higher incarceration rates. Those all come with negative societal outcomes and costs. Personally I think that should tweak our curiosity as to "why ?" and think about perhaps we are getting some things wrong. Rather than just knee jerk: build more prisons, lock more people up. Its not unlike the "is the NHS broken" debate. Of course not, its fine. It just needs more money, more hospitals, and more GPS. Don't worry about looking at the system.
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