|
Post by bracknellboy on Jan 11, 2022 10:31:37 GMT
I think if you are in your 70s-80s and on very low income, really struggle to keep warm in the winter at the best of times, and in the current situation are worried sick about the cost of your current and future heating bills, being advised to 'cuddle a pet' is both crass, insensitive and frankly a bit of a joke. And for these people, being told to put on extra layers is not insightful, but simply their default position. To the extent they are quite likely already wearing their coat indoors.
EDIT: None of which of course quite justifies the kind of faux outrage that will then eminate from the mouths of politicians looking to score points.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,021
Likes: 4,829
|
Post by adrianc on Jan 11, 2022 10:41:19 GMT
I am fully liberal when it comes to climate change, green energy, etc. and believe the only lasting solution is one that is similarly priced or cheaper than coal. Globally that seems clear but domestically too energy prices are quickly becoming key manifesto points and whatever the science says, many voters won't like the idea of paying £1,000's more every year just to be "green" The current price rises aren't because of "green", though. They're because of geopolitics, and gas supply, and the UK leaving the European energy market, and the fire at the UK-French interconnect, and removal of gas storage, and, and, and... Coal is an irrelevance. It's minimal. Coal peaks at around 5% of UK electricity generation, and is often 0%. It's a decade since it ceased to be a major factor, 40% in 2012 down to 9% by 2016, 1.6% last year. OTOH, gas is currently around half of electricity generation - before we consider gas boilers. gridwatch.co.uk/
|
|
Mike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 648
Likes: 444
|
Post by Mike on Jan 11, 2022 11:13:55 GMT
I am fully liberal when it comes to climate change, green energy, etc. and believe the only lasting solution is one that is similarly priced or cheaper than coal. Globally that seems clear but domestically too energy prices are quickly becoming key manifesto points and whatever the science says, many voters won't like the idea of paying £1,000's more every year just to be "green" The current price rises aren't because of "green", though. They're because of geopolitics, and gas supply, and the UK leaving the European energy market, and the fire at the UK-French interconnect, and removal of gas storage, and, and, and... Coal is an irrelevance. It's minimal. Coal peaks at around 5% of UK electricity generation, and is often 0%. It's a decade since it ceased to be a major factor, 40% in 2012 down to 9% by 2016, 1.6% last year. OTOH, gas is currently around half of electricity generation - before we consider gas boilers. gridwatch.co.uk/Precisely. The question is; should we turn coal back on or stick with ££ gas - the former would be cheaper but less green.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,021
Likes: 4,829
|
Post by adrianc on Jan 11, 2022 11:46:57 GMT
The current price rises aren't because of "green", though. They're because of geopolitics, and gas supply, and the UK leaving the European energy market, and the fire at the UK-French interconnect, and removal of gas storage, and, and, and... Coal is an irrelevance. It's minimal. Coal peaks at around 5% of UK electricity generation, and is often 0%. It's a decade since it ceased to be a major factor, 40% in 2012 down to 9% by 2016, 1.6% last year. OTOH, gas is currently around half of electricity generation - before we consider gas boilers. gridwatch.co.uk/Precisely. The question is; should we turn coal back on or stick with ££ gas - the former would be cheaper but less green. "Neither" is a perfectly sound option. Many of the big old coal power stations are still producing electricity, btw. Just not from coal.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,884
Likes: 2,317
Member is Online
|
Post by keitha on Jan 11, 2022 11:51:00 GMT
from 2017 to early 2021 Standing charges increased slightly ie about 5% Last year mine went up about 50% or £70 a year.
Gas price for me went from 3p kWh in 2017 to 2.86 in 2021, then 3.8P late last year, Quote today 9.6P
Electricity more tricky As I was on Octopus Agile 20/21 so harder to compare but 2017 14p, 2019 15p, 2021 23p (peak) average 20p Quote today 34p kWh plus an extra 14p a day on Standing charge
So a rough calculation £380 plus £100 SC gas, £400 £80 electric £1020 Plus VAT Call it £1100
new Cost would be £960 plus £100 SC gas, £680 £140 Electric £1880 Plus VAT £1970 an increase of nearly £800 or £70 a month.
I'm a low user at 2000kWh Electric and 10,000kWh gas
For a single person on benefits that increase represents 1/4 of the weekly income for many pensioners that is 10% of their monthly income, I have a decent pension and it would be 5% of my pension
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 15:16:28 GMT
But it doesn't mean that SSE/Ovo were anything but remarkably crass in sending it out to their customers in the current energy market... is it crass or is it just that they have met the public and recognise that some people really are stupid.
Given that we are going though a period where peope take their advice off the internet rather than take the vaccine..
Where what is reported about a friend's cousin's balls might have more influence than the medical leader of the nation..
When I have found intelligent people trying to cool down in a small room by opening the fridge door, in the same room.
It seems almost sensible to suggest putting on warmer clothes when it is cold. While a filling warm breakfast is just that.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 15:21:38 GMT
Probably worth mentioning that we don't burn Russian gas in the UK, the pipelines don't run that way.
We do burn gas that people who burn Russian gas can also burn so we are in the same market.
Russia wants long term contracts so they can politicise the CH4 system (despite promising not to, SURPRISE)
By burning excess gas or converting gas into H2 (for say fertiliser production) we are merely doing Russia's work for it. It would be more sensible to spend more money on green energy and to put up the green energy levy.
If we are talking politically, then Boris is up creek on this. Kill 150,000 people is not a vote loser, but freezing even more people to death can be and he needs to find a solution that can be removed when this nonsense is over (whingers start saying lets keep the solution forever, my right etc). Vat, modification of the CAP ehm, that is about all I can see.
Our critical issue is our gas pipeline system is a fair bit bigger than our electrical system and we havn't been investing in enough ITM electroysers to store electricity as H2. Time to start putting the orders in Boris.
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Jan 12, 2022 20:10:40 GMT
But.... But... climate change miraculists are telling us it is getting warmer..... and warmer..... and..... why will we need central heating..
|
|
pikestaff
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,136
Likes: 1,484
|
Post by pikestaff on Jan 12, 2022 21:27:04 GMT
Thank you. If this works it will be a great step forward. After seeing your post I've googled it and found a few more reports. This one includes a schematic of how it works. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the "stratification buffer" in the middle. www.current-news.co.uk/news/vattenfall-launches-high-temperature-heat-pumps-that-can-directly-replace-gas-boilersEdit: A bit more about it here: deepresource.wordpress.com/2021/11/18/vattenfall-offers-high-temperature-heat-pump/The narrative on storage makes me think it works for someone who is out during the day but might not work if you are at home during the day. Edit 2: The power output of "6 kW base, 11 kW peak" per the 2nd link is rather low. I translate that to mean it's 6 kW, but if you don't use it during the day you can use the storage to have 11kW in the evening. Edit 3: I have a large Victorian house and my existing boiler is rated 24kW, although I have upgraded the insulation since it was installed and could get away with less. How much less I don't know, but I'd need at least 2 and possibly 3 of their heat pumps. No idea if they can be combined or not. So I'm much less excited about this than I was when I first read about it. But, still interested in your thoughts...
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 21:55:44 GMT
just to point some things out.
1 There are no climate changers, there are normal people and there are climate deniers. Since over 200 countries now agree that climate change is man made it is the new normal. Get used to it.
2 it is perfectly possible for the average temperature of the planet to rise while the temperature of part of the planet to go down
3 there is climate and there is weather. It is vital to understand the difference
I have written to the UK branch of the Swedish company this afternoon to try and understand how the stratification process increases the efficiency over a large range of temperatures.
I'm getting the feedback that the UK team have not yet been briefed on the product as it is going into Holland first. But I have my name down for info when it comes.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,021
Likes: 4,829
|
Post by adrianc on Jan 12, 2022 22:03:43 GMT
Thank you. If this works it will be a great step forward. After seeing your post I've googled it and found a few more reports. This one includes a schematic of how it works. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the "stratification buffer" in the middle. www.current-news.co.uk/news/vattenfall-launches-high-temperature-heat-pumps-that-can-directly-replace-gas-boilersEdit: A bit more about it here: deepresource.wordpress.com/2021/11/18/vattenfall-offers-high-temperature-heat-pump/The narrative on storage makes me think it works for someone who is out during the day but might not work if you are at home during the day. Edit 2: The power output of "6 kW base, 11 kW peak" per the 2nd link is rather low. I translate that to mean it's 6 kW, but if you don't use it during the day you can use the storage to have 11kW in the evening. Edit 3: I have a large Victorian house and my existing boiler is rated 24kW, although I have upgraded the insulation since it was installed and could get away with less. How much less I don't know, but I'd need at least 2 and possibly 3 of their heat pumps. No idea if they can be combined or not. So I'm much less excited about this than I was when I first read about it. But, still interested in your thoughts... So the stratification buffer is a hot water tank. It heats the tank when it's not required for heating the house, then the two can combine to double the output... for as long as the tank remains hot... The fundamental difference seems to be that it uses compressed CO2 for the first heat loop - it heats the CO2 with electricity, then pumps that through the tank to heat the water... I don't think I understand. www.cooltherm.co.uk/heat-pump2/c02-heat-pumps
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,884
Likes: 2,317
Member is Online
|
Post by keitha on Jan 13, 2022 14:05:54 GMT
The vast majority of UK Gas Boilers are overkill
my Boiler is 28kWh output
Over the 34 days I've used 1850 kWh of gas, so that's 54kWh a day so an 11kWh heat pump would cope easily. my boiler modulates down as it is running for example yesterday it ran for just over 6 hours ie running at about 9KWh .
Of course the issue in many properties is where do you put a large heat store.
my calculation is you need 10kWh of energy to raise 1 cubic metre of water 10 C and yes this is the sort of volume many houses would need, so People can image the sort of area taken up by a bath but floor to ceiling and it would need to be on a solid floor.
|
|
|
Post by westcountryfunder on Jan 13, 2022 17:05:55 GMT
Thank you. If this works it will be a great step forward. I agree. Good news. Makes it all look more feasible. Here's another high temperature heat pump which may do the trick:
See page 4 for a succinct summary of its features.
Nevertheless, it does appear that more conventional units operating at lower temperatures are more efficient. There's a lot to think about!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 17:38:00 GMT
Really interesting document thank you for the link.
I suspect that all that data is there to hide the fact they don't yet know what customers really want.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,884
Likes: 2,317
Member is Online
|
Post by keitha on Jan 13, 2022 17:51:38 GMT
If we are talking politically, then Boris is up creek on this. Kill 150,000 people is not a vote loser, but freezing even more people to death can be and he needs to find a solution that can be removed when this nonsense is over ( whingers start saying lets keep the solution forever, my right etc).
The same ones who say they can't cope without the £20 uplift in benefits that came in as a temporary measure. I fear the same would also apply to any trial of "universal Basic income" once people got it it would be nigh on impossible to take away. One thing I would do ( were I in power ) I would extend cold weather payments to all pensioners, It seems unfair that because you are a £ or 2 above the limit for Pension credit you don't get it but those on pension credit do.
|
|