ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 6, 2015 16:02:05 GMT
A: When you discover that the Asset/s listed as security turn out to cover only about 50% of the Loan.
I urge all Lenders on this Forum to thoroughly read all the small print on the Loan before investing via your P2P Provider.
Yes, you always should, however such obviously VERY important detail should be CLEARLY pointed out and not used as a means to "inflate" Asset Values and give the false impression of reduced/no risk.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 7, 2015 3:52:49 GMT
A: When you discover that the Asset/s listed as security turn out to cover only about 50% of the Loan. I urge all Lenders on this Forum to thoroughly read all the small print on the Loan before investing via your P2P Provider. Yes, you always should, however such obviously VERY important detail should be CLEARLY pointed out and not used as a means to "inflate" Asset Values and give the false impression of reduced/no risk. ozboy: Can you give us any specific examples of inflated asset values?
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 7, 2015 17:00:55 GMT
OK, as an example:-
Loan is for £400,000
P2P Lender lists various Assets as security when advertising the Loan for investment. These Assets Values total£500,000, which includes the Borrowers £1M house, but Lenders only benefit from £200,000 of this on a Second Charge. So there is £100,000 "excess" in case of Default, which is attractive to Lenders as low/no risk. (Assets £500K - Loan £400K)
In due course P2P Lender informs Lenders that unbeknown to them the Borrower has sold the house to settle other debts. Agreement paperwork didn't exist to stop the Borrower from doing this.
So, now Lenders have a situation where the Borrower has Defaulted and there is only £300,000 of Assets security backing a £400,000 Loan. The £200,000 Second Charge has "disappeared".
The Asset Values were "inflated" making the Loan appear attractive as Low Risk because of the perceived Assets being worth £100,000 more than the Loan, providing good "cover" in case of Default.
Except it turns out the Assets are worth £100,000 less than the Loan.
I don't know the technical terms of Lending and possibly not explained it the best, but I imagine you get the gist.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Jan 7, 2015 17:10:30 GMT
I don't recognise this but I fear the platform might have to explain (compensate for?) their incompetence in not securing the security
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Jan 7, 2015 17:15:19 GMT
I don't recognise this but I fear the platform might have to explain (compensate for?) their incompetence in not securing the security Try Assetz #41 , Tricky!!
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sand2880
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Post by sand2880 on Jan 7, 2015 17:16:24 GMT
As I understand it, the company that holds a 'charge' on a propery will need to agree to a change in the deed titles and could block the sale. Therefore, in terms in a charge on a property the asset cover would be correct.
However, if it was a personal guarantee rather than a charge the asset could be sold without any agreement and the remaining assets may not cover the default.
I always disregard any personal guarantee in reviewing security.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jan 7, 2015 17:35:53 GMT
When is Asset Backed Lending ...Not Asset Backed Lending?
On the rare occasion Financial Crisis offer asset security on a non property loan.
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Post by planetx on Jan 7, 2015 17:46:40 GMT
I don't recognise this but I fear the platform might have to explain (compensate for?) their incompetence in not securing the security Try Assetz #41 , Tricky!! I'm not sure if that is the loan being referred to but a second charge on property was never offered on that one, only a PG which as sand2880 points out is very different.
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 7, 2015 20:59:18 GMT
Just to confirm AC #41 had an un-supported PG ... which are generally worthless and should not be considered as security by lenders.
I fear the OP was referring to this loan, but had lent on the loan without understanding the security available was limited to
- First fixed and floating charge over the borrower - Cross guarantees from all related companies - Personal guarantee from an individual
In reverse order, the PG was as I have noted unsupported (as has historically been the case with this particular loan introducer Lud**** Fin****** on most of their TC loans), and can never be relied upon to have a value when needed - an assets and liabilities statement is meaningless as the assets can be moved out of reach before the crunch comes. The cross guarantees from related companies was always of dubious value, but especially once one such company had a CCJ plus winding up petition against it in April last year as discussed on this forum at the time. So the only asset security here is the fixed and floating charge which would need us to liquidate the company to retrieve any value. To say this loan had insuffceint asset security is wrong - its up to each lender to judge whether the fixed and floating charge is suffceint for the level of risk that lender is comfortable with.
I sold out when the group company hit the rocks last year, but I only ever had a small position in the loan because of what I regarded as weak security from the outset.
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JamesFrance
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Post by JamesFrance on Jan 7, 2015 21:01:01 GMT
I wonder what the legal position is if someone offers a personal guarantee without being good for the amount involved?
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 7, 2015 21:09:30 GMT
I wonder what the legal position is if someone offers a personal guarantee without being good for the amount involved? Ultimately if an unsupported PG has to be called on without the underlying cash available, in all probability the borrower will be forced into bankruptcy, and the dividend received by us depends on how many other unsupported PG have been granted as what assets there are will be shared by all unsecured creditors AFTER HMRC etc have been paid their due.
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sqh
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Post by sqh on Jan 7, 2015 21:54:52 GMT
OK, as an example:- Loan is for £400,000 P2P Lender lists various Assets as security when advertising the Loan for investment. These Assets Values total£500,000, which includes the Borrowers £1M house, but Lenders only benefit from £200,000 of this on a Second Charge. So there is £100,000 "excess" in case of Default, which is attractive to Lenders as low/no risk. (Assets £500K - Loan £400K) Can you provide some more clues about the platform/loan that you have an issue with ? Eg. Is the wording of the phrase "attractive to Lenders as low/no risk" a precise description ? What was the stated LTV ? I doubt it is an AC loan. It is clearly not AC #41 which states under risk and issues section of the CR "light on security".
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Jan 8, 2015 8:59:52 GMT
It is clearly not AC #41 which states under risk and issues section of the CR "light on security". I think it is #41, and the issue OP has is the following tagline: ``At Assetz Capital, we seek to reduce this risk to our investors by taking asset security on every loan.'' Presumably, anyway.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 8, 2015 21:44:07 GMT
What if there's an "Auto Invest" Option for your Interest and/or Capital which the Platform may offer?
You have to have the confidence and trust that there is a solid and realisable Asset/s securing the Loans.
If there isn't then "Auto Investing" is very sharp practice.
To say the least.
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spockie
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Post by spockie on Jan 8, 2015 22:30:12 GMT
What if there's an "Auto Invest" Option for your Interest and/or Capital which the Platform may offer? You have to have the confidence and trust that there is a solid and realisable Asset/s securing the Loans. If there isn't then "Auto Investing" is very sharp practice. To say the least. If you are indeed talking about AC, then it's up to you which loans you invest in. The system only auto-invests if you have set a target for a particular loan, so you have control where your money goes even if the buying is automated. If you aren't talking about AC, it might be better if you put us all out of our misery and said who you actually are talking about.
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