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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Nov 15, 2021 18:43:11 GMT
I've just seen a positive report on the progress of the project and they've completed construction and are moving towards startup.
Very encouraging.
Additionally, they are raising money on a crowdfunding platform (C****C***) and have already raised over £1.5m and the company is valued at ~£40m.
I've not put any money in and probably won't but that's not stopped others I guess
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Nov 15, 2021 19:59:38 GMT
I've just seen a positive report on the progress of the project and they've completed construction and are moving towards startup. Very encouraging. Additionally, they are raising money on a crowdfunding platform (C****C***) and have already raised over £1.5m and the company is valued at ~£40m. I've not put any money in and probably won't but that's not stopped others I guess
Is "C****C***" Crowd Cube?
I appreciate your reticence in mentioning another platform, but it's nice to know when a project is being cross funded.
That's very useful thanks
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Nov 15, 2021 20:31:32 GMT
I've just seen a positive report on the progress of the project and they've completed construction and are moving towards startup. Very encouraging. Additionally, they are raising money on a crowdfunding platform (C****C***) and have already raised over £1.5m and the company is valued at ~£40m. I've not put any money in and probably won't but that's not stopped others I guess
Is "C****C***" Crowd Cube?
I appreciate your reticence in mentioning another platform, but it's nice to now when a project is being cross funded.
That's very useful thanks
Yes, it's crowdcube. I've never used them so can't give anymore info.
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Nov 15, 2021 21:57:05 GMT
£3.68m.raised 12.months ago!
They could have used that money to repay my patience on their loans.
I'm guessing that their focus for the next 12 months is to start making money from operations and repay these 2 loans plus other borrowings.
There was a suggestion that a new Abundance loan might be on the cards (new money for old if you will)
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iRobot
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,680
Likes: 2,477
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Post by iRobot on Nov 16, 2021 10:35:27 GMT
£3.68m.raised 12.months ago! They could have used that money to repay my patience on their loans. I'm guessing that their focus for the next 12 months is to start making money from operations and repay these 2 loans plus other borrowings. There was a suggestion that a new Abundance loan might be on the cards (new money for old if you will) Does the above tell a story as to the nature of this loan? Admittedly only a cursory glance over morning coffee, but: # borrowing entity is a plc; parent entity is a ltd company. (Nothing especially relevant there - it just helps differentiate the two) - the Abu loan is to the plc; it's effectively a 2nd charge sitting behind a 1st charge facility of £11m - the 1st charge holder is also a PSC of the plc with >75% of the shares (but the ltd co still retains >75% of the voting rights, according to Companies House) # the parent entity (the ltd co) is raising monies via crowdfunding; currently CrowdCube, previously Seedrs - afaics, that money could solely be for the ltd co; there's no obligation to pass on the the plc (or, in other words, it needn't be put to use that would be of direct benefit to the plc and/or support the Abu lenders' position) - presumably the ltd co has its own burn rate and/or other projects (growth plans) it wants to launch and a few millions here and there don't keep the lights on for very long in that scenario # " and the company is valued at ~£40m" - I'd respectfully suggest that should read ' notionally valued at ~£40m' - even if accurate, that's the ltd company, the parent entity, not the plc (the borrowing entity) which lenders against this loan are tied to. Personally and especially given the 2nd charge status of this loan, if I thought this project (and the ultimate controlling party behind it) were viable - not saying it is / not saying it isn't - then I think I'd prefer to 'back' the parent ltd co via crowdfunding in exchange for (a teeny bit) of equity rather than sit behind £11m of senior debt. (Even then it would be in the basis that the majority of start-ups fail, the risks are super-high, and so the level of 'investment' would be reflective of that.) Like I say, a cursory glance and I may have missed something (or lots!) so just my 2¢ worth...
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Post by overthehill on Nov 16, 2021 11:05:02 GMT
£3.68m.raised 12.months ago! They could have used that money to repay my patience on their loans. I'm guessing that their focus for the next 12 months is to start making money from operations and repay these 2 loans plus other borrowings. There was a suggestion that a new Abundance loan might be on the cards (new money for old if you will) Does the above tell a story as to the nature of this loan? Admittedly only a cursory glance over morning coffee, but: # borrowing entity is a plc; parent entity is a ltd company. (Nothing especially relevant there - it just helps differentiate the two) - the Abu loan is to the plc; it's effectively a 2nd charge sitting behind a 1st charge facility of £11m - the 1st charge holder is also a PSC of the plc with >75% of the shares (but the ltd co still retains >75% of the voting rights, according to Companies House) # the parent entity (the ltd co) is raising monies via crowdfunding; currently CrowdCube, previously Seedrs - afaics, that money could solely be for the ltd co; there's no obligation to pass on the the plc (or, in other words, it needn't be put to use that would be of direct benefit to the plc and/or support the Abu lenders' position) - presumably the ltd co has its own burn rate and/or other projects (growth plans) it wants to launch and a few millions here and there don't keep the lights on for very long in that scenario # " and the company is valued at ~£40m" - I'd respectfully suggest that should read ' notionally valued at ~£40m' - even if accurate, that's the ltd company, the parent entity, not the plc (the borrowing entity) which lenders against this loan are tied to. Personally and especially given the 2nd charge status of this loan, if I thought this project (and the ultimate controlling party behind it) were viable - not saying it is / not saying it isn't - then I think I'd prefer to 'back' the parent ltd co via crowdfunding in exchange for (a teeny bit) of equity rather than sit behind £11m of senior debt. (Even then it would be in the basis that the majority of start-ups fail, the risks are super-high, and so the level of 'investment' would be reflective of that.) Like I say, a cursory glance and I may have missed something (or lots!) so just my 2¢ worth... The post is worth more than 2¢ surely.
Given that the well presented website is lacking the first information I seek out like return rates and default, late loans and recovery statistics, no thanks.
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Post by nbk on Nov 16, 2021 17:12:05 GMT
£3.68m.raised 12.months ago! They could have used that money to repay my patience on their loans. I'm guessing that their focus for the next 12 months is to start making money from operations and repay these 2 loans plus other borrowings. There was a suggestion that a new Abundance loan might be on the cards (new money for old if you will)
Admittedly only a cursory glance over morning coffee, but:
# borrowing entity is a plc; parent entity is a ltd company. (Nothing especially relevant there - it just helps differentiate the two)
- the Abu loan is to the plc; it's effectively a 2nd charge sitting behind a 1st charge facility of £11m
- the 1st charge holder is also a PSC of the plc with >75% of the shares (but the ltd co still retains >75% of the voting rights, according to Companies House)
# the parent entity (the ltd co) is raising monies via crowdfunding; currently CrowdCube, previously Seedrs
- afaics, that money could solely be for the ltd co; there's no obligation to pass on the the plc (or, in other words, it needn't be put to use that would be of direct benefit to the plc and/or support the Abu lenders' position)
- presumably the ltd co has its own burn rate and/or other projects (growth plans) it wants to launch and a few millions here and there don't keep the lights on for very long in that scenario
# "and the company is valued at ~£40m"
- I'd respectfully suggest that should read 'notionally valued at ~£40m'
- even if accurate, that's the ltd company, the parent entity, not the plc (the borrowing entity) which lenders against this loan are tied to.
Personally and especially given the 2nd charge status of this loan, if I thought this project (and the ultimate controlling party behind it) were viable - not saying it is / not saying it isn't - then I think I'd prefer to 'back' the parent ltd co via crowdfunding in exchange for (a teeny bit) of equity rather than sit behind £11m of senior debt. (Even then it would be in the basis that the majority of start-ups fail, the risks are super-high, and so the level of 'investment' would be reflective of that.)
Like I say, a cursory glance and I may have missed something (or lots!) so just my 2¢ worth..."
I have been invested with C****c R********S through debenture loans on Abundance for a number of years and more recently through equity purchases on Crowdcube (this round and the one last year). Their CEO was on the panel of at least one (maybe more) COP26 meetings and their product and production method has a great future. I have invested directly and through p2p on dozens of companies over the last 10 years and I would say the management team here come out in the top three in terms of their integrity and insightfulness. Your notes/query above are fairly technical - I would suggest posting it on the Crowdcube discussion thread for the fundraise or indeed emailing the company directly on an address they have in place for investors. They will answer it - I have never seem them brush aside or hide from any queries.
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Steerpike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,977 
Likes: 1,687
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Post by Steerpike on Apr 7, 2022 17:11:15 GMT
Oh dear, this may be another few 100,000 not very valuable shares as for MV.
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Post by nbk on Jun 17, 2022 16:32:58 GMT
They are cutting it fine if they want to re-structure this one - just 9 working days left now until this is due for repayment, barely enough time for a vote. I reckon this one is going to be complex and they may be having problems working out an arrangement with Scottish Enterprise.
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Jun 17, 2022 19:40:02 GMT
At this time of year the grass is so luscious and long that you can't help but kick the inconvenient balloon payment into it and hope nobody notices until Autumn.
More seriously, I hope that we hear soon of what the plan is.
Personally, I want my money back and don't want a bit share of the business. Bit that does not seem too likely right now to be happening any time soon.
Grand plans for expansion and growth but no plans for repayment...
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Post by nbk on Jun 22, 2022 15:28:27 GMT
Proposal from C****c has just been published. Some quite big demands being asked of debenture holders. 16 pg doc, so a decent review needed....
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Post by peer2beer on Jun 22, 2022 17:27:14 GMT
Proposal from C****c has just been published. Some quite big demands being asked of debenture holders. 16 pg doc, so a decent review needed.... I've had a read through the document. The jist is that the debt burden is too great to repay - even over an 18 year period. So all capital will become shares at £10 a pop (if you had £5,000 invested you'll get 500 shares) and your interest is kept separate and will be repaid within the next 18 months. As a shareholder you'll have the opportunity to hold on for dear life and you might be able to get your money back (or more) at an unspecified future event date. The £10 price is based on a recent capital raising earlier this year but that might have been an EIS investment (does anyone know?) I don't know which way to vote.
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Post by peer2beer on Jun 22, 2022 20:28:42 GMT
The parent company's accounys are due at the end of June.
I'll wait to see them before I make my decision.
But it feels a bit like Hobson's Choice
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Post by annoyed1986 on Jun 22, 2022 20:56:17 GMT
Yet another Hobson's choice that i've had now on 75% of my Abundance investments.
Its been a dogs dinner or a portfolio. One by one they give positive updates and then the repayment comes into view and all of a sudden they have problems restructuring and you are presented with a "accept this restructure or we go out of business."
They is flagrant misleading communication in so many of these updates.
The most recent update says covid plus brexit plus delayed by three years. The update before that said 3 months.
Anyway, let's be honest, the update's explanation for how the interest will be repaid is pure fiction. They won't be able to pay the interest off in 18 months time, or else they wouldnt have tried to do a debt for equity swap for that bit either.
Another investment down the drain.
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Post by annoyed1986 on Jun 22, 2022 20:56:49 GMT
The parent company's accounys are due at the end of June. I'll wait to see them before I make my decision. But it feels a bit like Hobson's Choice Hobson's choice indeed
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