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Post by captainconfident on Jun 25, 2024 20:23:01 GMT
My point about economics wasn't about the presence or absence of supermarkets, or what might or might not be on the shelves (though god knows Russia has a long and rich history of having nothing on the shelves). My point was that the norms expected of an EU country (vis free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, a free press, support and respect for human rights, acceptance of the rule of law and adherence to a level of common regulation eg competition, environmental, budgetary etc), when seen as a foundation for a successful, happy, free country that rejects the idea that autocrats have a right to rule indefinitely holds up a very harsh mirror to Russia. That is threatening to Putin and his regime. I used to play badminton with a Chinese bloke at work. He had some quite interesting stories and was certainly open in critizing the china government when we got on to politics. But the thing is, most people don't care about the things you list. You or I cannot reasonably change anything unless you have huge and highly exceptional personal skills and a lot of support. So we just moan about whoever and get on with life. My impression of China is that people really don't care too much that they need to be careful in critizing the government or the status-quo (some odd fusion of "communism" and market economics). They care far more about what life they have - education, schools, jobs, entertainment etc etc. Like us though, there is nothing to stop them joining the "communist" party and beginning a sideline or even a full time career in politics. But really like here, only a tiny, tiny proportion of folk care about any of that. I suspect Russia is similar notwithstanding growing resement at the military draft and niggles with sanctions etc. This is all very reasonable regarding the common citizens . But in an autocracy its the leader who is or is not feeling threatened that matters. And Putin felt his model of 1984 style state control was threatened by the free speech and genuine democracy model next door but one to Russia. Russia already had a big army and nukes: It was fear if the EU and not of NATO that made Putin invade.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 26, 2024 7:26:22 GMT
But the thing is, most people don't care about the things you list. Right up until the point they personally fall foul of the regime for whatever slender reason, and realise that they really should've cared.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 26, 2024 15:19:46 GMT
This is an interesting, and sobering, watch:-
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Post by gramsky on Jun 27, 2024 9:08:22 GMT
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 27, 2024 11:59:25 GMT
Insert before each entry 1914 Germany attacks (WW1) 1930s Japan attacks China etc 1990s various Arab states attack other Arab states, Israel or support terrorists against West. 2014/2022 - Russia invaded Ukraine See your chickens, raise you eggs.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 27, 2024 12:53:11 GMT
Although I think this is a slight over simplification of history I agree that no conflict just has one side. I do not know if the sanctions against Russia will lead to Armageddon, they have pretty much been useless and possibly benefited Russia indirectly. The proxy war that the US is becoming increasingly personally involved with might very well turn us into radio active cockroach hamburgers. Given how things are escalating I would say it is 50/50 that this situation leads to WW3 and Game Over. I still cannot understand why people in the West are willing to risk a horrible death for themselves and everyone they know over a border dispute between Ukraine and Russia which is nothing to do with them - but of course the US involvement is nothing to do with Ukraine's territorial dispute with Russia, but that is what the brainwashed masses seem to have been told to believe. US involvement in the Cluster Munition Attack on a tourist beach in Crimea is terrifying insanity in my opinion and highlights the psychopathic nature of the ruling elite in the west.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 27, 2024 13:57:17 GMT
US involvement in the Cluster Munition Attack on a tourist beach in Crimea is terrifying insanity in my opinion and highlights the psychopathic nature of the ruling elite in the west. 1. It was a US supplied munition. It may have been fired from a US supplied HIMARS (it could have been fired from an M270, a number of which have been supplied by the UK). It was fired by Ukraine at a Russian military target on Ukrainian soil during Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 2. It may have been a cluster munition, it may have been a unitary warhead. I'm unclear on this and am happy to be corrected either way. 3. It was not targeted at civilians. 4. It was hit by Russian defensive fire and resulting shrapnel hit the beach (and would otherwise have hit its intended target). 5. Why are Russian tourists going on beach holidays in an occupied country during a war (that Russia started)? 6. If you want to talk about civilian casualties lets start by discussing those inflicted on Ukraine by Russia - www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/7. And whilst we're at it lets discuss the people who the ICC have issued warrants for - Putin, Lvova-Belova (for kidnapping children), Shoigu and Gerasimov.
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k6
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Post by k6 on Jun 27, 2024 14:33:54 GMT
Although I think this is a slight over simplification of history I agree that no conflict just has one side. I do not know if the sanctions against Russia will lead to Armageddon, they have pretty much been useless and possibly benefited Russia indirectly. The proxy war that the US is becoming increasingly personally involved with might very well turn us into radio active cockroach hamburgers. Given how things are escalating I would say it is 50/50 that this situation leads to WW3 and Game Over. I still cannot understand why people in the West are willing to risk a horrible death for themselves and everyone they know over a border dispute between Ukraine and Russia which is nothing to do with them - but of course the US involvement is nothing to do with Ukraine's territorial dispute with Russia, but that is what the brainwashed masses seem to have been told to believe. US involvement in the Cluster Munition Attack on a tourist beach in Crimea is terrifying insanity in my opinion and highlights the psychopathic nature of the ruling elite in the west. And more of scaremongering from , obviously not brained washed , mr.angry. Your comments sounds bit desperate I have to say cos there is no much positive info recently for russian and mr. putler.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 27, 2024 15:03:53 GMT
US involvement in the Cluster Munition Attack on a tourist beach in Crimea is terrifying insanity in my opinion and highlights the psychopathic nature of the ruling elite in the west. 1. It was a US supplied munition. It may have been fired from a US supplied HIMARS (it could have been fired from an M270, a number of which have been supplied by the UK). It was fired by Ukraine at a Russian military target on Ukrainian soil during Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 2. It may have been a cluster munition, it may have been a unitary warhead. I'm unclear on this and am happy to be corrected either way. 3. It was not targeted at civilians. 4. It was hit by Russian defensive fire and resulting shrapnel hit the beach (and would otherwise have hit its intended target). 5. Why are Russian tourists going on beach holidays in an occupied country during a war (that Russia started)? 6. If you want to talk about civilian casualties lets start by discussing those inflicted on Ukraine by Russia - www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/7. And whilst we're at it lets discuss the people who the ICC have issued warrants for - Putin, Lvova-Belova (for kidnapping children), Shoigu and Gerasimov. I am tending to agree that there was no deliberate targeting of the beach with cluster munitions as otherwise the casualties would be far higher. However, I don't think it far fetched that US personnel might be involved in targeting or technically operating ATACMS on the ground. It is indeed a very dangerous game. At least you have given some arguments as to why you are not worried as opposed to just saying "YOU'RE BRAINWASHED......."
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 27, 2024 15:13:57 GMT
Oh I am worried.
I just don't think that misattributing this attack to the US, misrepresenting the nature of the strike and its cause, and coming out with twaddle about "psychopathic ruling elites" is very helpful.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 27, 2024 15:39:14 GMT
Just so I can be sure we're all on the same page here... This "US attack on a beach" is actually... www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pppr719rlo...Ukrainian-launched missiles that were shot down by Russian defences, with the debris landing on a beach? The US supplied them, but this is not news. Moscow claims the US must have been involved in targetting them (albeit not to the beach) but the US denies it, and says targetting is entirely Ukrainian? Ukraine says they were targetted (by them) at the many military targets in Crimea, which Russia is choosing to surround with civilians? But isn't using human shields kinda illegal under various global conflict conventions? I'm not sure Crimea would be my first choice for a beach holiday right now.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 27, 2024 15:51:29 GMT
1. It was a US supplied munition. It may have been fired from a US supplied HIMARS (it could have been fired from an M270, a number of which have been supplied by the UK). It was fired by Ukraine at a Russian military target on Ukrainian soil during Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 2. It may have been a cluster munition, it may have been a unitary warhead. I'm unclear on this and am happy to be corrected either way. 3. It was not targeted at civilians. 4. It was hit by Russian defensive fire and resulting shrapnel hit the beach (and would otherwise have hit its intended target). 5. Why are Russian tourists going on beach holidays in an occupied country during a war (that Russia started)? 6. If you want to talk about civilian casualties lets start by discussing those inflicted on Ukraine by Russia - www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/7. And whilst we're at it lets discuss the people who the ICC have issued warrants for - Putin, Lvova-Belova (for kidnapping children), Shoigu and Gerasimov. I am tending to agree that there was no deliberate targeting of the beach with cluster munitions as otherwise the casualties would be far higher. However, I don't think it far fetched that US personnel might be involved in targeting or technically operating ATACMS on the ground. It is indeed a very dangerous game. At least you have given some arguments as to why you are not worried as opposed to just saying "YOU'RE BRAINWASHED......." I personally also suspect that it was some kind of accident this landed on the beach (at least I hope to God that is the case). Although what the hell they are doing firing cluster munition missiles in the first place is a big question for me - from what I understand these are primarily used on the battlefield against troops not against military sites. A number of people have said the US has to be heavily involved in the targeting and operation of these advanced weapons, whether they have a Ukrainian solider pushing the button is pretty much irrelevant. Just because I am appalled by Russian tourists on a beach sustaining horrific injuries from a US weapon many countries have outlawed and want this conflict to end ASAP does not make me a fan of Russia and Putin. As I have pointed out a number of times I am also appalled by the horrific use of Soviet Era thermobaric weapons by Russia. I am against war in general - especially nuclear war which I fear is now closer than ever.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 27, 2024 15:58:34 GMT
I am tending to agree that there was no deliberate targeting of the beach with cluster munitions as otherwise the casualties would be far higher. However, I don't think it far fetched that US personnel might be involved in targeting or technically operating ATACMS on the ground. It is indeed a very dangerous game. At least you have given some arguments as to why you are not worried as opposed to just saying "YOU'RE BRAINWASHED......." I personally also suspect that it was some kind of accident this landed on the beach (at least I hope to God that is the case). Although what the hell they are doing firing cluster munition missiles in the first place is a big question for me - from what I understand these are primarily used on the battlefield against troops not against military sites. A number of people have said the US has to be heavily involved in the targeting and operation of these advanced weapons, whether they have a Ukrainian solider pushing the button is pretty much irrelevant. Just because I am appalled by Russian tourists on a beach sustaining horrific injuries from a US weapon many countries have outlawed and want this conflict to end ASAP does not make me a fan of Russia and Putin. As I have pointed out a number of times I am also appalled by the horrific use of Soviet Era thermobaric weapons by Russia. I am against war in general - especially nuclear war which I fear is now closer than ever. I don't know either but wasn't there something a while back about the US having far more of that type of munition which is why Ukraine ended up with a disproportionate number?
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k6
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Post by k6 on Jun 27, 2024 16:25:06 GMT
I am tending to agree that there was no deliberate targeting of the beach with cluster munitions as otherwise the casualties would be far higher. However, I don't think it far fetched that US personnel might be involved in targeting or technically operating ATACMS on the ground. It is indeed a very dangerous game. At least you have given some arguments as to why you are not worried as opposed to just saying "YOU'RE BRAINWASHED......." I personally also suspect that it was some kind of accident this landed on the beach (at least I hope to God that is the case). Although what the hell they are doing firing cluster munition missiles in the first place is a big question for me - from what I understand these are primarily used on the battlefield against troops not against military sites. A number of people have said the US has to be heavily involved in the targeting and operation of these advanced weapons, whether they have a Ukrainian solider pushing the button is pretty much irrelevant. Just because I am appalled by Russian tourists on a beach sustaining horrific injuries from a US weapon many countries have outlawed and want this conflict to end ASAP does not make me a fan of Russia and Putin. As I have pointed out a number of times I am also appalled by the horrific use of Soviet Era thermobaric weapons by Russia. I am against war in general - especially nuclear war which I fear is now closer than ever. Shame you don't hope to God that hopefully sooner than later russians realized what are they dying for. What is this number ? you and ? " Just because I am appalled by Russian tourists on a beach sustaining horrific injuries from a US weapon " - you make sure the words are clear and sticking out . . . well done " I am against war in general - especially nuclear war which I fear is now closer than ever. " - you really doing a poor job in here
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 27, 2024 16:32:29 GMT
I personally also suspect that it was some kind of accident this landed on the beach (at least I hope to God that is the case). Although what the hell they are doing firing cluster munition missiles in the first place is a big question for me - from what I understand these are primarily used on the battlefield against troops not against military sites. A number of people have said the US has to be heavily involved in the targeting and operation of these advanced weapons, whether they have a Ukrainian solider pushing the button is pretty much irrelevant. Just because I am appalled by Russian tourists on a beach sustaining horrific injuries from a US weapon many countries have outlawed and want this conflict to end ASAP does not make me a fan of Russia and Putin. As I have pointed out a number of times I am also appalled by the horrific use of Soviet Era thermobaric weapons by Russia. I am against war in general - especially nuclear war which I fear is now closer than ever. I don't know either but wasn't there something a while back about the US having far more of that type of munition which is why Ukraine ended up with a disproportionate number? It seems to be a very old version of the ATACMS missile - only pre-2003 versions were cluster. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-140_ATACMS#VariantsSo a cynic might interpret that as the US saying "Here's some old weapons, guys. No, don't mind the dust. Us? Keep the good stuff for ourselves? Would we...?" - 'course, you can make your own mind up on how that feeds into the "SO HIGH TECH THEY NEED THE US TO OPERATE!" line. The clusters are, apparently, good for runway denial. www.iiss.org/online-analysis/missile-dialogue-initiative/2023/10/ukraine-targets-russian-airfields-with-us-supplied-atacms-missile/
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