adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2024 10:58:09 GMT
...however there are parts of Ukraine with large Russian populations who want to be part of the Russian Federation Yes, the bits they stacked after the 2014 invasion. Of course they didn't... And I've got a bridge for sale. But no Med blue-water port. Not enough massively fertile grain producing farmland. And there we go again... "If you talk to those other kids who don't like me, I'm going to beat you up and nick your dinner money."Where the hell does Russia get off on thinking they can dictate who another country does or does not talk to? It's not up to them. It's not their prerogative to invade and take over unless their preferences are met.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 18, 2024 11:17:54 GMT
True. They'd just be part of Russia, like it or not. Then probably Moldova. Maybe the Central Asian 'stans, Georgia, Armenia. Possibly even the Baltics. Rewarding that kind of megalomania carries consequences. - however if you tried to listen to Russia you would know they did not invade Ukraine to expand its territory, it already has a massive land mass. If Ukraine had agreed to remain neutral and not be used by the US to threaten Russia with a large western military build up and a government hostile to Russia they would be in ALOT better place than they are today. As I have said countless times all the people in this country who go on about Ukraine fighting Russia for the principle of democracy and freedom (which is a joke since elections have been cancelled there and people are being dragged off the streets and sent to the front line to die against their will) would feel totally different if they personally had to fight it out with the Russians and have thousand pound vacuum bombs dropped on them. You are presumably referring to the bits in the East ? Which regardless of the large Russian heritage population still voted overwhelmingly for independence from the Soviet Union in the 1991 referendum. And I don't mean Brexit referendum levels of preference, I mean OVERWHELMINGLY. On high %age turnout. Not one region voted against. Now, in Crimea and Sevastopol City, it was much more marginal. But everywhere else, the vote was overwhelming. So, leaving aside the fact that Russia has forced huge swathes of the population out of the East, and put their own people in, starting from 2014, what is your actual subjective evidence for that statement? That stands up as a counter to the one known free vote on the related issue of distancing itself from the Russia by leaving the Soviet Union?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2024 11:23:49 GMT
Russia has never wanted to rule all of Ukraine, however there are parts of Ukraine with large Russian populations who want to be part of the Russian Federation You are presumably referring to the bits in the East ? Which regardless of the large Russian heritage population still voted overwhelmingly for independence from the Soviet Union in the 1991 referendum. And I don't mean Brexit referendum levels of preference, I mean OVERWHELMINGLY. On high %age turnout. Not one region voted against. Now, in Crimea and Sevastopol City, it was much more marginal. But everywhere else, the vote was overwhelming. Even in those two areas... Crimean ASSR - 54.19% of votes cast Sevastopol city - 57.07% of votes cast The next closest was 83.86% of votes cast, and the national total 90.32%. 55% of "ethnic Russians" voted in favour of independence. But Vlad doesn't like that...
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 18, 2024 11:47:43 GMT
...if Ukraine had entered the Istanbul agreement ... they would not be in the position of having their country divided in two True. They'd just be part of Russia, like it or not. Then probably Moldova. Maybe the Central Asian 'stans, Georgia, Armenia. Possibly even the Baltics. Rewarding that kind of megalomania carries consequences. Even if that's true, they wouldn't be dead though would they?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 18, 2024 11:50:06 GMT
Looks like even the BBC/UK-government are starting to think some land "compromise" might be necessary. I am not gleeful about that but if it brings the war to end swiftly such that it can't happen again then I'll be very happy (and no doubt will millions of Ukrainians except the most patriotic of the patriotic). However Zelensky's conditions for peace are increasingly at odds with the situation which surrounds him.www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd0z8gg5v14oThe tragedy is if Ukraine had entered the Istanbul agreement hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians would still be alive and they would not be in the position of having their country divided in two. Although he is a puppet I would still say Boris the Clown has a lot to answer for. Probably although I doubt he would have done it alone without the Americans. Also I'm not sure that agreement would have provided any real assurance of it not happening again (the invasion).
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2024 11:51:29 GMT
True. They'd just be part of Russia, like it or not. Then probably Moldova. Maybe the Central Asian 'stans, Georgia, Armenia. Possibly even the Baltics. Rewarding that kind of megalomania carries consequences. Even if that's true, they wouldn't be dead though would they? Perhaps the allies should have just let Hitler rampage through Europe in 1939, so as to avoid any unnecessary loss of life. Obvs, at that stage, the holocaust wasn't foreseen...
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 18, 2024 11:55:03 GMT
Even if that's true, they wouldn't be dead though would they? Perhaps the allies should have just let Hitler rampage through Europe in 1939, so as to avoid any unnecessary loss of life. Obvs, at that stage, the holocaust wasn't foreseen... You can't sacrifice over a million men (on both sides) because you think someone is like Hitler. Madness.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 18, 2024 11:59:45 GMT
History and wars are never pretty. Who could have overthrown Eight-Nation Alliance at that time of history?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2024 12:26:51 GMT
Perhaps the allies should have just let Hitler rampage through Europe in 1939, so as to avoid any unnecessary loss of life. Obvs, at that stage, the holocaust wasn't foreseen... You can't sacrifice over a million men (on both sides) because you think someone is like Hitler. Madness. Hitler, 1939. Not Hitler, 1945. At that stage, he was just an "elected" leader busy moving in next door. Not the author of the final solution. Remember, lots of people thought that appeasement was the way forward, to minimise loss of life. So did the US, until Pearl Harbor.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 18, 2024 12:44:08 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2024 13:12:59 GMT
If I was a person of Russian ancestry living in eastern Ukraine with the risk of being attacked by anti-russian extremists I wonder why some Ukrainians might be "anti-Russian", after a year of them trying to annex your country using military force? I also wonder why some "referenda" held by Russian authorities in Russian-occupied territories during a Russian invasion might give pro-Russian results. The wiki link you posted states that the only other nation to accept the results is North Korea. Which, purely coincidentally, is one of Putin's biggest trading partners now.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 18, 2024 13:14:51 GMT
You can't sacrifice over a million men (on both sides) because you think someone is like Hitler. Madness. Hitler, 1939. Not Hitler, 1945. At that stage, he was just an "elected" leader busy moving in next door. Not the author of the final solution. Remember, lots of people thought that appeasement was the way forward, to minimise loss of life. So did the US, until Pearl Harbor. So kill a million people just in case he turns out like Hitler ? Madness.
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Oct 18, 2024 13:20:50 GMT
Err I kind of agree about Europe but Russia is heading even faster to the dustbin, with a huge demographic time bomb coming it's way and an economy based on oil and gas, it's at present at least a bit of a one trick pony. The world is moving away from oil and gas and will not want as much off it soon. Without Ukraine and it's agricultural land, the world's people will always need feeding , what resources has it got. I think that is why Putin started this war to grab a economic future for Russia from Ukraine.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 18, 2024 13:21:00 GMT
Hitler, 1939. Not Hitler, 1945. At that stage, he was just an "elected" leader busy moving in next door. Not the author of the final solution. Remember, lots of people thought that appeasement was the way forward, to minimise loss of life. So did the US, until Pearl Harbor. So kill a million people just in case he turns out like Hitler ? Madness. In 1939, they didn't know Hitler would turn out like Hitler. The blame for the deaths lies at the door of the aggressor, not the defender.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 18, 2024 13:21:27 GMT
If I was a person of Russian ancestry living in eastern Ukraine with the risk of being attacked by anti-russian extremists I wonder why some Ukrainians might be "anti-Russian", after a year of them trying to annex your country using military force? I also wonder why some "referenda" held by Russian authorities in Russian-occupied territories during a Russian invasion might give pro-Russian results. The wiki link you posted states that the only other nation to accept the results is North Korea. Which, purely coincidentally, is one of Putin's biggest trading partners now. It is to do with Ukrainian Ultra-Nationalists and their views on WW2 and Russian people in general*. This is why you see Azov etc wearing Wolfsangel and various other controversial symbols: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderite* - they do not consider the Red Army as heroes who saved the world from the Third Reich.
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