k6
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Post by k6 on Nov 19, 2024 19:38:58 GMT
NATO has 3.5 million troops and a lot of military assets. You're the armchair general tasked to removing the invading forces from Ukraine. How would you do it? How long to deploy and how long to rid Ukraine including Crimea of invading forces. All assuming nobody starts lobbing nukes around. And another question: Russia has enough and decides to launch 50 Zircons and 50 Kinzhals towards....I dunno....Luton. All conventional warheads. How many get through, how much damage is done and how do we react ? I would say it is not just about the combined might of NATO it is also about the willingness to fight and the logistics. If you were to have a war just between NATO and Russia on Russia's border I would put my money on Russia primarily because most NATO countries will not be willing to sustain losses while Russia will probably be willing to lose millions. Then you add the probability that China and North Korea and Iran will get directly involved on Russia's side against NATO it tips the balance further. Imagine a war between North Korea and the UK, the North Koreans would probably go to the last man I dont think the same can be said for the modern British Army. Imagine for example if the UK sent troops to Ukraine like Boris wanted - how many deaths would it take before the British had enough, the reality is Ukraine is not something that directly concerns most NATO countries and I doubt most are willing to die for it. I doubt the British Army would have been able to sustain the 30,000 casualties the Ukrainians are said to have suffered in Kursk, it would bring down the government. If there western was not so pathetic and provide proper support to Ukraine the war would be over long ago. History likes to repeat itself with appeasing hitler during WWII. Russia would stand no chance with NATO. It struggles without with support of NK . . . You can keep your pathetic scaremongering by bringing NK vs UK war. We know your intentions and we know your employers
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 19, 2024 21:49:47 GMT
I would say it is not just about the combined might of NATO it is also about the willingness to fight and the logistics. If you were to have a war just between NATO and Russia on Russia's border I would put my money on Russia primarily because most NATO countries will not be willing to sustain losses while Russia will probably be willing to lose millions. Then you add the probability that China and North Korea and Iran will get directly involved on Russia's side against NATO it tips the balance further. Imagine a war between North Korea and the UK, the North Koreans would probably go to the last man I dont think the same can be said for the modern British Army. Imagine for example if the UK sent troops to Ukraine like Boris wanted - how many deaths would it take before the British had enough, the reality is Ukraine is not something that directly concerns most NATO countries and I doubt most are willing to die for it. I doubt the British Army would have been able to sustain the 30,000 casualties the Ukrainians are said to have suffered in Kursk, it would bring down the government. If there western was not so pathetic and provide proper support to Ukraine the war would be over long ago. History likes to repeat itself with appeasing hitler during WWII. Russia would stand no chance with NATO. It struggles without with support of NK . . . You can keep your pathetic scaremongering by bringing NK vs UK war. We know your intentions and we know your employers Looks like Ukranians are wanting an end to the war asap. But their opinion doesn't matter does it ? news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 19, 2024 22:15:11 GMT
The survey says 52% of Ukranians want a negotiated settlement (suprised it's not 100%), which is a bit meaningless without details of what they consider acceptable as a settlement - Russia withdraws from all of Ukraine?. Also a 'fair share' are happy to make territorial concessions in return for peace - again pretty meaningless without clarification of the extent of the concessions.
As Sir Humphrey use to say, you can make the survey results say whatever you want depending on how you ask the questions.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 19, 2024 23:19:41 GMT
The survey says 52% of Ukranians want a negotiated settlement (suprised it's not 100%), which is a bit meaningless without details of what they consider acceptable as a settlement - Russia withdraws from all of Ukraine?. Also a 'fair share' are happy to make territorial concessions in return for peace - again pretty meaningless without clarification of the extent of the concessions.
As Sir Humphrey use to say, you can make the survey results say whatever you want depending on how you ask the questions.
Gallup are pretty good at that and look at the trend. And why are you surprised its not 100% ? They don't want to lose any territory but they don't want this war to continue either. Very difficult decisions for most.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 20, 2024 8:08:30 GMT
The survey says 52% of Ukranians want a negotiated settlement (suprised it's not 100%), which is a bit meaningless without details of what they consider acceptable as a settlement - Russia withdraws from all of Ukraine?. Also a 'fair share' are happy to make territorial concessions in return for peace - again pretty meaningless without clarification of the extent of the concessions.
As Sir Humphrey use to say, you can make the survey results say whatever you want depending on how you ask the questions.
You can't negotiate with somebody whose red lines are mutually incompatible with your own... So whose red lines have to move?
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 20, 2024 8:38:15 GMT
Can someone explain the logic of “Anti-personnel mines” when the other side has threatened the use of weapons of mass destruction? What are the military objectives from Joe for Ukraine and the their NATO Allies? A total distraction or what?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 20, 2024 9:46:32 GMT
The survey says 52% of Ukranians want a negotiated settlement (suprised it's not 100%), which is a bit meaningless without details of what they consider acceptable as a settlement - Russia withdraws from all of Ukraine?. Also a 'fair share' are happy to make territorial concessions in return for peace - again pretty meaningless without clarification of the extent of the concessions.
As Sir Humphrey use to say, you can make the survey results say whatever you want depending on how you ask the questions.
And is it the people who have taken the brunt of the war, but will also likely end up under Russian rule or the ones who are more remote from the front line and hope to be living in a relatively free part of Ukraine afterwards?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 20, 2024 10:01:56 GMT
Can someone explain the logic of “Anti-personnel mines” when the other side has threatened the use of weapons of mass destruction? What are the military objectives from Joe for Ukraine and the their NATO Allies? A total distraction or what? Yes, that's exactly what the threat of nuclear weapons is. Not even Putin is quite that stupid.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 20, 2024 14:01:10 GMT
Ukraine about to collapse across its entire front ? www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0dpdx420loBBC and others now blaming Russia for a "psycological attack". Well Russia didn't close the US and other major western powers' embassies today. US to give Ukraine anti personnel landmines so Ukraine's government can fk the land up even more? And this in response to Russia's latest nuclear rhetoric. Reminds me of the helmets provided by Germany at the start. Looks like Mr Saver who is unfortunately regularly attacked in this thread has sadly been proven right. Ukraine is going to lose. All that is left is to find out how long it will take and how much land they will lose (on top of the catastrophic loss of life and destruction already taken place). We might previously have got a freeze based on existing lines. Not now.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 20, 2024 14:39:22 GMT
Ukraine about to collapse across its entire front ? www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0dpdx420loBBC and others now blaming Russia for a "psycological attack". Well Russia didn't close the US and other major western powers' embassies today. ....... Really? The article you link to has no mention of "psycological", or even "psychological". But the live feed does, so presumably you are referring to that. That has the headline "Ukraine warns people not to panic over 'Russian psychological attack' ". And every mention of "psychological ...." is a) in quotes b) stating source ("military intelligence agency" or "Ukraine"). That is literally how reporting works. BBC not blaming anyone.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 20, 2024 14:54:29 GMT
Ukraine about to collapse across its entire front ? www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0dpdx420loBBC and others now blaming Russia for a "psycological attack". Well Russia didn't close the US and other major western powers' embassies today. ....... Really? The article you link to has no mention of "psycological", or even "psychological". But the live feed does, so presumably you are referring to that. That has the headline "Ukraine warns people not to panic over 'Russian psychological attack' ". And every mention of "psychological ...." is a) in quotes b) stating source ("military intelligence agency" or "Ukraine"). That is literally how reporting works. BBC not blaming anyone. As usual you missed the point of my post but keep up the good speling checker work.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 20, 2024 15:06:14 GMT
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 20, 2024 15:16:37 GMT
Really? The article you link to has no mention of "psycological", or even "psychological". But the live feed does, so presumably you are referring to that. That has the headline "Ukraine warns people not to panic over 'Russian psychological attack' ". And every mention of "psychological ...." is a) in quotes b) stating source ("military intelligence agency" or "Ukraine"). That is literally how reporting works. BBC not blaming anyone. As usual you missed the point of my post but keep up the good speling checker work. Nope, didn't miss the point. Your post had several points. I decided to respond to the "BBC is giving an opinion....." point. The spelling was just coincidental, in case they had misspelt it somewhere in the article. Which is quite common these days with fairly poor proof reading. Of course you may not have deliberately intended to make that a point at all.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 20, 2024 17:10:24 GMT
That is literally how reporting works. We've tried explaining this concept to Michael before...
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 20, 2024 17:49:25 GMT
Ukraine about to collapse across its entire front ? www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0dpdx420loBBC and others now blaming Russia for a "psycological attack". Well Russia didn't close the US and other major western powers' embassies today. US to give Ukraine anti personnel landmines so Ukraine's government can fk the land up even more? And this in response to Russia's latest nuclear rhetoric. Reminds me of the helmets provided by Germany at the start. Looks like Mr Saver who is unfortunately regularly attacked in this thread has sadly been proven right. Ukraine is going to lose. All that is left is to find out how long it will take and how much land they will lose (on top of the catastrophic loss of life and destruction already taken place). We might previously have got a freeze based on existing lines. Not now. I think Ukraine is very close to the end now and hopefully when Trump comes in some negotiations can take place. As for the reaction I have got from some of the more brain washed members it is to be expected. I think when the reality of what has happened in Ukraine finally sinks in some of them will realise that the MSM/government cannot be trusted and they need to try to learn to think for themselves a bit. Some of them like Braknell will just go into a state of denial and sink further into what Alex Jones calls the "MSM Matrix"
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