adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 30, 2023 14:51:55 GMT
my argument is at 30 my car ticks over in 4/5 gear at 20 i'm in 3rd and revving higher, thus producing more pollution. Nowhere near that simple. Emissions and fuel consumption are not intrinsically and directly linked to engine revs. You would have more control of the car with a few more revs on in a lower gear than sitting lugging at idle, and quite likely use less fuel. You will quite likely use less fuel at 20 than at 30 but, as with journey times, free moving maximum speed is rarely particularly relevant in urban areas. That's why reduction from 20 to 30 in London has been emission-neutral. But that's not what it's about. It's about pedestrian safety and outcomes from impacts. It's about making car traffic less dominant over more responsible forms of transport. "A Transport for London report report shows that since 20mph limits were introduced on key roads in London in 2020: * the number of overall collisions reduced by 25% * collisions involving vulnerable road users decreased by 36% * collisions involving people walking decreased by 63% * collisions resulting in death or serious injury reduced by 25%."www.gov.wales/introducing-20mph-speed-limits-frequently-asked-questions
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 30, 2023 15:10:18 GMT
If it was safety as they claim, then banning SUVs would have been a better idea,
SUVs kill more pedestrians in accidents, yet they are sold as safer, which is also true, drivers and passengers are more likely to survive a crash. and being honest the SUV owners I know round here all use them for the school run or to commute to work.
IMHO the 20mph idea has caused more risky driving I get far more cars now jumping out of side roads in front of me. The idiot group are still doing 40 and are overtaking more. the one minute on a journey is a fallacy unless that journey in town is less than about 1.5 miles.
the proposal that buses and taxis will still be able to do 30 is a farce, especially when comment was made yesterday that no exemption will be made for 999 vehicles on a call out
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 30, 2023 15:24:44 GMT
the one minute on a journey is a fallacy unless that journey in town is less than about 1.5 miles. Thank you for such a great illustration of how little people actually understand the effect of the change on journey times... A mile at a constant 20mph takes 3 minutes, so 1.5 miles takes 4.5 minutes A mile at a constant 30mph takes 2 minutes, so 1.5 miles takes 3 minutes Saving one minute on a journey of a mile to a mile and a half is theoretically possible, but in practice? Nope. Actual journey averages will be nowhere close to the limit. The averages won't change by very much, because the vast majorities of the speeds in any journey won't actually change. Think about it - the time taken to pull out from the parking space, accelerate, slow for a junction, accelerate after it, look for a parking space, park... Average speed across all urban "A" roads in England was 17mph last year. You can bet it'll have been lower on B and unclassified. www.gov.uk/government/statistics/travel-time-measures-for-the-strategic-road-network-and-local-a-roads-january-to-december-2022/travel-time-measures-for-local-a-roads-january-to-december-2022-report
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 30, 2023 16:57:15 GMT
I'm thinking real World and a particular journey I make that is definitely 5 minutes or more slower despite most of it being National speed limit
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Post by bernythedolt on Nov 30, 2023 17:29:27 GMT
adrianc, you've just summarised how buses potentially allowed to travel at 30mph in 20 limits would make bog all difference to their journey times. All the reasons proffered for cars being restricted to 20 apply equally well to buses, but in spades: road user safety, reduced emissions and trivially increased journey times. It's illogical enough that the Welsh parliament will no doubt adopt the proposal.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 30, 2023 18:43:15 GMT
It's always tickled me that, in an apparent effort to keep the air clean for residents, you have to slow to 50 for a long stretch of the M4 past Port Talbot, the UK's largest steelworks and one of the largest in Europe. At least it offers drivers longer to savour the smell and taste of the air as you dawdle past the foul muck being spewed out on an industrial scale, literally. .... slower speed causes congestion, look at the Brynglas tunnels at 50 on the M4 it is always slow whatever time of day you hit it, ....Forgive me for observing that - in the absence of any other evidence - that is at risk of confusing correlation with causation. There is a stack of evidence from properly formulated studies and modelling that where there is heavy traffic load, reducing the maximum speed of traffic increases the average speed and the flow of traffic (aka reduces congestion). This is the reason for the use of variable speed limits on motorways in sections/areas particularly prone to high traffic loads. Or indeed fixed lower limits in some areas (e.g. M3 junction 2 where the M25 joins, and where a permanent 50mph speed limit was put in place at around the merge to reduce congestion/improve flow/improve safety). The results from both modelling and the real world in these situations is unarguable: reduced max speed leads to less erratic speed changes leads to less sudden hard braking and less bunching etc etc. which ultimately results in smoother traffic flows, higher average speeds, and higher flow rates.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Nov 30, 2023 19:59:44 GMT
20mph is no bad thing in Cymru Georgians are the most intimidating drivers I have ever experienced,followed closely by Welsh Boyos.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 30, 2023 20:09:05 GMT
.... slower speed causes congestion, look at the Brynglas tunnels at 50 on the M4 it is always slow whatever time of day you hit it, ....Forgive me for observing that - in the absence of any other evidence - that is at risk of confusing correlation with causation. There is a stack of evidence from properly formulated studies and modelling that where there is heavy traffic load, reducing the maximum speed of traffic increases the average speed and the flow of traffic (aka reduces congestion). This is the reason for the use of variable speed limits on motorways in sections/areas particularly prone to high traffic loads. Or indeed fixed lower limits in some areas (e.g. M3 junction 2 where the M25 joins, and where a permanent 50mph speed limit was put in place at around the merge to reduce congestion/improve flow/improve safety). The results from both modelling and the real world in these situations is unarguable: reduced max speed leads to less erratic speed changes leads to less sudden hard braking and less bunching etc etc. which ultimately results in smoother traffic flows, higher average speeds, and higher flow rates. I would dispute the bunching up and braking is better. On the M1 you get changes from no limit to 60 to 40 back to 60 back to 40, trying to drive sensibly is impossible, you can't brake to 40 because of everyone around you is doing 60 then it goes back up to 60 and everyone accelerates and then back down to 40. Who is changing these limits, they are absolutely stupid.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 30, 2023 20:53:15 GMT
my argument is at 30 my car ticks over in 4/5 gear at 20 i'm in 3rd and revving higher, thus producing more pollution. Nowhere near that simple. Emissions and fuel consumption are not intrinsically and directly linked to engine revs. You would have more control of the car with a few more revs on in a lower gear than sitting lugging at idle, and quite likely use less fuel. You will quite likely use less fuel at 20 than at 30 but, as with journey times, free moving maximum speed is rarely particularly relevant in urban areas. That's why reduction from 20 to 30 in London has been emission-neutral. But that's not what it's about. It's about pedestrian safety and outcomes from impacts. It's about making car traffic less dominant over more responsible forms of transport. "A Transport for London report report shows that since 20mph limits were introduced on key roads in London in 2020: * the number of overall collisions reduced by 25% * collisions involving vulnerable road users decreased by 36% * collisions involving people walking decreased by 63% * collisions resulting in death or serious injury reduced by 25%."www.gov.wales/introducing-20mph-speed-limits-frequently-asked-questionsIt is blindingly obvious that a 20mph cap is going to increase emissions. Take it to extremes. Drive from Cardif to London at 1mph and do the same at 60mph. Note which one burns more petrol. More interestingly to me is whether folk in Wales will really vote with their feet and abandon Labour because of this. I think there is a real chance that they might as so many folk are likely to be peed off about it in a way that really connects them to the decisions of those they vote for.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 30, 2023 22:07:47 GMT
Nowhere near that simple. Emissions and fuel consumption are not intrinsically and directly linked to engine revs. You would have more control of the car with a few more revs on in a lower gear than sitting lugging at idle, and quite likely use less fuel. You will quite likely use less fuel at 20 than at 30 but, as with journey times, free moving maximum speed is rarely particularly relevant in urban areas. That's why reduction from 20 to 30 in London has been emission-neutral. But that's not what it's about. It's about pedestrian safety and outcomes from impacts. It's about making car traffic less dominant over more responsible forms of transport. "A Transport for London report report shows that since 20mph limits were introduced on key roads in London in 2020: * the number of overall collisions reduced by 25% * collisions involving vulnerable road users decreased by 36% * collisions involving people walking decreased by 63% * collisions resulting in death or serious injury reduced by 25%."www.gov.wales/introducing-20mph-speed-limits-frequently-asked-questions It is blindingly obvious that a 20mph cap is going to increase emissions. Take it to extremes. Drive from Cardif to London at 1mph and do the same at 60mph. Note which one burns more petrol.sorry, but that is not so much 'blindlingly obvious' as 'blindingly obviously flawed'. What you appear to be trying to say, and extrapolating from, is that "going slower" is de facto less fuel efficient than "going faster". Whatever the relative efficiency of 20 mph vs 30 mph for any specific vehicle, it doesn't follow based on the merits of going at 1 mph vs 60 mph. The comparison/extrapolation is simply daft. If it was, then driving my vehicle at 150mph down the motorway would be more fuel efficient for a given distance than going at 40mph. And that ain't the case. It fails the sense check. There are probably 3 primary factors affecting fuel economy for a given vehicle (at the same weight): 1. Rolling resistance 2. Drag 3. internal/powertrain losses/efficiencies The first is going to be linear with speed, give or take. I think. Although at the margins that won't be the case (e.g. differences in tyre temperatures at different speeds). Drag on the other hand is not linear: it is dependant on the square of velocity. A body travelling through the air at 40 mph is subject to 4 times the drag of one doing 20 mph. And therefore the system has to do 4 times the work to overcome the increase in drag for the doubling in speed. Or one at 30 mph is subject to x2.25 the drag of one travelling at 20mph*. The 3rd has a lot to do with the design of the engine and associated components: i.e. what revs/power output/torque/speed envelope has the design been optimised for. Self evidently, what speed envelope you are talking about affects which is the more dominant factor. At low speeds, 1 and 3 will be. At higher speeds the second will start to dominate i.e. so that higher speeds will lead to a decrease in overall efficiency. If that wasn't the case, rather than imposing speed limits of 50mph during the 70's oil crisis, everyone would have been encouraged to max out down the motorway and treat it like the autobahn. *[In the same way the kinetic energy of the moving body is also relative to the square of velocity, and hence the whole core argument around 20 mph vs 30 mph from a pedestrian safety POV: i.e. a vehicle hitting someone at 30mph has >2x the kinetic energy than if it was doing 20mph].
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 30, 2023 22:45:11 GMT
It is blindingly obvious that a 20mph cap is going to increase emissions. Take it to extremes. Drive from Cardif to London at 1mph and do the same at 60mph. Note which one burns more petrol. sorry, but that is not so much 'blindlingly obvious' as 'blindingly obviously flawed'. What you appear to be trying to say, and extrapolating from, is that "going slower" is de facto less fuel efficient than "going faster". Whatever the relative efficiency of 20 mph vs 30 mph for any specific vehicle, it doesn't follow based on the merits of going at 1 mph vs 60 mph. The comparison/extrapolation is simply daft. If it was, then driving my vehicle at 150mph down the motorway would be more fuel efficient for a given distance than going at 40mph. And that ain't the case. It fails the sense check. There are probably 3 primary factors affecting fuel economy for a given vehicle (at the same weight): 1. Rolling resistance 2. Drag 3. internal/powertrain losses/efficiencies The first is going to be linear with speed, give or take. I think. Although at the margins that won't be the case (e.g. differences in tyre temperatures at different speeds). Drag on the other hand is not linear: it is dependant on the square of velocity. A body travelling through the air at 40 mph is subject to 4 times the drag of one doing 20 mph. And therefore the system has to do 4 times the work to overcome the increase in drag for the doubling in speed. Or one at 30 mph is subject to x2.25 the drag of one travelling at 20mph*. The 3rd has a lot to do with the design of the engine and associated components: i.e. what revs/power output/torque/speed envelope has the design been optimised for. Self evidently, what speed envelope you are talking about affects which is the more dominant factor. At low speeds, 1 and 3 will be. At higher speeds the second will start to dominate i.e. so that higher speeds will lead to a decrease in overall efficiency. If that wasn't the case, rather than imposing speed limits of 50mph during the 70's oil crisis, everyone would have been encouraged to max out down the motorway and treat it like the autobahn. *[In the same way the kinetic energy of the moving body is also relative to the square of velocity, and hence the whole core argument around 20 mph vs 30 mph from a pedestrian safety POV: i.e. a vehicle hitting someone at 30mph has >2x the kinetic energy than if it was doing 20mph]. The sweet spot is in the middle - traditionally 56mph. As you move away from that speed (greater or less than) your mpg goes down and you emit more. Therefore since 20 is numerically less than 30, for a normal car, 20mph is worse than 30mph. (100mph is also worse than 90mph).
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 30, 2023 23:07:33 GMT
Pah, what do Imperial College know about science anyway? www.bristol20mph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/speed-restriction-air-quality-report-2013-for-web.pdfOTOH, there's some feels... They're far more important than science. The whole 56mph "most fuel efficient speed" myth is simply that there used to be three fuel consumption figures quoted in UK car ads. Urban, 56mph, 70mph. Three guesses which was best? But why an odd non-round number like 56mph, if it's not some magical sweet spot? Simples. It's 90kph. A typical pan-European extra-urban non-motorway cruise. No more scientific than that. And, no, cars aren't all tuned to rig that figure. It was simply not possible to do that back in the days of carburettors. Those fixed-speed consumption figures went out the window decades ago, in favour of actual simulated driving cycles. Sometime around, ooh, the time that electronic fuel injection (which might perhaps have allowed something along those lines) and cats (which don't like the selective leaning-off that it'd need) became universal.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 30, 2023 23:37:30 GMT
Pah, what do Imperial College know about science anyway? www.bristol20mph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/speed-restriction-air-quality-report-2013-for-web.pdfOTOH, there's some feels... They're far more important than science. The whole 56mph "most fuel efficient speed" myth is simply that there used to be three fuel consumption figures quoted in UK car ads. Urban, 56mph, 70mph. Three guesses which was best? But why an odd non-round number like 56mph, if it's not some magical sweet spot? Simples. It's 90kph. A typical pan-European extra-urban non-motorway cruise. No more scientific than that. And, no, cars aren't all tuned to rig that figure. It was simply not possible to do that back in the days of carburettors. Those fixed-speed consumption figures went out the window decades ago, in favour of actual simulated driving cycles. Sometime around, ooh, the time that electronic fuel injection (which might perhaps have allowed something along those lines) and cats (which don't like the selective leaning-off that it'd need) became universal. Unfortunately, Imperial once that bastion of scientific endeavour, has shown itself not to me immune to the politics surrounding the science. Their influence on the government during Covid was one example. Here is one of thousands of articles and papers written by those who don't agree. unherd.com/thepost/the-20mph-speed-limit-is-not-safer-or-better-for-the-planet/I would add that Imperial's paper that you linked to came to its conclusion based upon changes in driving styles at different speeds. They really worked very hard indeed to prove that and of course did their research in gridlocked London. It would be fun to see them try and prove the same for a 10mph limit don't you think?
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 1, 2023 3:02:50 GMT
It is blindingly obvious that a 20mph cap is going to increase emissions. Take it to extremes. Drive from Cardif to London at 1mph and do the same at 60mph. Note which one burns more petrol. sorry, but that is not so much 'blindlingly obvious' as 'blindingly obviously flawed'. What you appear to be trying to say, and extrapolating from, is that "going slower" is de facto less fuel efficient than "going faster". Whatever the relative efficiency of 20 mph vs 30 mph for any specific vehicle, it doesn't follow based on the merits of going at 1 mph vs 60 mph. The comparison/extrapolation is simply daft. If it was, then driving my vehicle at 150mph down the motorway would be more fuel efficient for a given distance than going at 40mph. And that ain't the case. It fails the sense check. There are probably 3 primary factors affecting fuel economy for a given vehicle (at the same weight): 1. Rolling resistance 2. Drag 3. internal/powertrain losses/efficiencies The first is going to be linear with speed, give or take. I think. Although at the margins that won't be the case (e.g. differences in tyre temperatures at different speeds). Drag on the other hand is not linear: it is dependant on the square of velocity. A body travelling through the air at 40 mph is subject to 4 times the drag of one doing 20 mph. And therefore the system has to do 4 times the work to overcome the increase in drag for the doubling in speed. Or one at 30 mph is subject to x2.25 the drag of one travelling at 20mph*. [...] It gets worse. Perhaps counter-intuitively, the power required of the engine actually goes up with the cube of velocity rather than the square. To double your speed requires 8 times the power. Drag accounts for the second power, the quadrupling of work done to overcome air resistance, as you've said. But you then have to add the cost associated with moving the vehicle from A to B in half the time. 4x the work done (to overcome drag) requires 4x the power, but 4x the work done in half the time requires 8x the power.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Dec 1, 2023 11:02:11 GMT
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