agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 18, 2023 8:46:38 GMT
How about giving people the option of giving up the DB scheme and moving to money purchase, with employer contribution capped at the average for comparable trades in the private sector? sure, can renegotiate package, but can't see one aspect separately from rest of package. Pension isn't some sort of nice extra add-on, it's a core part of the compensation package, and if you want to get rid of it will need something else added on rather than just cutting it because some people think it is too high. When you joined the NHS (I assume many years ago) did your contract of employment say you were guaranteed access to the DB pension scheme for as long as you remained working for NHS?
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 18, 2023 12:38:27 GMT
As opposed to the man in the street, who has also seen large real term reductions in pay since 2008, but starting from a much lower level. Um - no see this since 2012 (it's worse if you do it from 2008, or extend it to current date). /photo/1 They carefully avoided a comparison with the Civil Service in that cherry-picked graph. The graphic suggests medical practitioners have lost ground in real terms to the extent of around 13%. Since the rebase to 100 in 2011, their line now sits at about 87. The equivalent senior civil service has lost 23% since 2010, over a similar timeframe. www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/civil-service-pay-governments-ability-deliverBy that yardstick, doctors have done rather well!
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 18, 2023 12:53:24 GMT
I would add that as a fairly senior ranking and highly qualified civil service IT professional, there was never any danger of me ever reaching the LTA, even when set at its lowest level. Not even close. In certain spheres, workers seem to be in danger of losing touch with reality. It has always struck me that anyone over-running their LTA hasn't done too badly out of life.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 18, 2023 13:06:16 GMT
I would add that as a fairly senior ranking and highly qualified civil service IT professional, there was never any danger of me ever reaching the LTA, even when set at its lowest level. Not even close. In certain spheres, workers seem to be in danger of losing touch with reality. It has always struck me that anyone over-running their LTA hasn't done too badly out of life. Especially when they have had expensive training at taxpayers expense. Compare and contrast with airline pilots who earn a shed load of cash after they have coughed up about £100k to fund their own training.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2023 14:49:01 GMT
I would add that as a fairly senior ranking and highly qualified civil service IT professional, there was never any danger of me ever reaching the LTA, even when set at its lowest level. Not even close. In certain spheres, workers seem to be in danger of losing touch with reality. It has always struck me that anyone over-running their LTA hasn't done too badly out of life. Especially when they have had expensive training at taxpayers expense. Compare and contrast with airline pilots who earn a shed load of cash after they have coughed up about £100k to fund their own training. Medical students like other students pay tuition fees, indeed for longer than most due to length of course, and forgo income due to long length of studies (airline pilots get to start earning it back much more quickly). Always amazes me that people only ever suggest that doctors are trained at taxpayers expense, whereas so is every other student. Sure, doctors' training costs more, but the taxpayer gets it back in multiples with the unpaid work medical students do plus the woefully underpaid overtime doctors put in for many years - and UK doctors spend a lot more time in junior "training" (read cheap service) posts than most other countries. I worked for several years being paid ONE THIRD of my hourly rate for all hours over 40 per week. No surprise I was asked to do a higher number of overtime hours (the AVERAGE working week was 83-96 hours - but some weeks I did 136 hours, 96 of which were at one third of my normal rate). Doing well or badly in life isn't the point - if you set up huge financial disincentives to keep working, don't be surprised if people don't keep working. Telling them how well they've done in life is meaningless. In fact, tell me - I did well, eventually, and I stopped NHS work earlier than I would otherwise have done largely because of the disincentives. I did my bit for over 30 years in the NHS, but now someone needs to work out how to fill the NHS work I left behind - good luck.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2023 14:51:27 GMT
Um - no see this since 2012 (it's worse if you do it from 2008, or extend it to current date). /photo/1 They carefully avoided a comparison with the Civil Service in that cherry-picked graph. The graphic suggests medical practitioners have lost ground in real terms to the extent of around 13%. Since the rebase to 100 in 2011, their line now sits at about 87. The equivalent senior civil service has lost 23% since 2010, over a similar timeframe. www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/civil-service-pay-governments-ability-deliverBy that yardstick, doctors have done rather well! if you go back to 2008, the figure for doctors in something like 28% - don't have the links to hand. Doctors really haven't done well compared to anybody. Fully agree civil servants have been scr*wed too.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2023 15:02:05 GMT
sure, can renegotiate package, but can't see one aspect separately from rest of package. Pension isn't some sort of nice extra add-on, it's a core part of the compensation package, and if you want to get rid of it will need something else added on rather than just cutting it because some people think it is too high. When you joined the NHS (I assume many years ago) did your contract of employment say you were guaranteed access to the DB pension scheme for as long as you remained working for NHS? nothing is guaranteed, but a decent final salary pension (50% of salary after 40 years) was part of the package, at a cost of 6% of salary. Essentially over time the cost went up 2.5 fold (to 15%) and the benefits were reduced by new pension taxes (took nearly 20% off my pension), revised scheme (moving to career average instead of final salary) and below inflation salary increases (28% since 2008). My point is that pensions were and are deferred salary, were part of the package, and not some additional extra. In any case the benefits have reduced over time but there hasn't been a compensatory increase in salary (the opposite!) so I guess that was a successful reduction in costs for the government.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2023 15:05:59 GMT
Um - no see this since 2012 (it's worse if you do it from 2008, or extend it to current date). /photo/1 They carefully avoided a comparison with the Civil Service in that cherry-picked graph. The graphic suggests medical practitioners have lost ground in real terms to the extent of around 13%. Since the rebase to 100 in 2011, their line now sits at about 87. The equivalent senior civil service has lost 23% since 2010, over a similar timeframe. www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/civil-service-pay-governments-ability-deliverBy that yardstick, doctors have done rather well! just to be clear, that graphic is 2010 to 2020, and is around 13% as you say. But for 2008-2022, it is more like 26%, and more to 2023.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 18, 2023 15:55:40 GMT
They carefully avoided a comparison with the Civil Service in that cherry-picked graph. The graphic suggests medical practitioners have lost ground in real terms to the extent of around 13%. Since the rebase to 100 in 2011, their line now sits at about 87. The equivalent senior civil service has lost 23% since 2010, over a similar timeframe. www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/civil-service-pay-governments-ability-deliverBy that yardstick, doctors have done rather well! just to be clear, that graphic is 2010 to 2020, and is around 13% as you say. But for 2008-2022, it is more like 26%, and more to 2023. That's against RPI for propaganda purposes, normal ONS calculations are against CPI.
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Post by bernythedolt on Mar 18, 2023 17:05:06 GMT
just to be clear, that graphic is 2010 to 2020, and is around 13% as you say. But for 2008-2022, it is more like 26%, and more to 2023. That's against RPI for propaganda purposes, normal ONS calculations are against CPI. I was just about to make that same point. If those figures were presented against CPI, as the ONS uses, they would show a much reduced level of decline, more in keeping with most of the public sector and a lot of others. Indeed, the median salary for all full-time employees has dropped 5.9% in real terms (against CPI) since 2008. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8456/The chart on the left hand side of this article is interesting. Adjusted to CPI, it shows police, teachers and prison officers as quite bad losers, but the surprise for me was paramedics. Almost £900 per week and some of the best paid in the groups shown. Who'd have thought they were better off than police officers? www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jul/19/how-public-sector-pay-has-fallen-in-real-terms-in-charts
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alanh
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Post by alanh on Mar 18, 2023 17:49:14 GMT
That Guardian earnings graph shows that the public sector are consistently paid better than the private sector by approx £70-£80 per week. They also of course get enrolled in a far superior pension scheme. Doesn't exactly sound disastrous to me.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Mar 18, 2023 18:10:38 GMT
That Guardian earnings graph shows that the public sector are consistently paid better than the private sector by approx £70-£80 per week. They also of course get enrolled in a far superior pension scheme. Doesn't exactly sound disastrous to me. IT professional, Accountant/Auditor in Local Government with 20 years service lucky to be on much more than £40K similar professionals in private industry £100k Plus. I would say basic admin staff in Local Government are well paid in many instances but the professionals are not.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 19, 2023 3:50:03 GMT
That Guardian earnings graph shows that the public sector are consistently paid better than the private sector by approx £70-£80 per week. They also of course get enrolled in a far superior pension scheme. Doesn't exactly sound disastrous to me. And don't forget far better job security. When was the last time a public sector employee lost their job because their employer went bust?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 19, 2023 9:55:42 GMT
That Guardian earnings graph shows that the public sector are consistently paid better than the private sector by approx £70-£80 per week. They also of course get enrolled in a far superior pension scheme. Doesn't exactly sound disastrous to me. And don't forget far better job security. When was the last time a public sector employee lost their job because their employer went bust? Don't know about the "last time", but it certainly happens... 18 months ago: www.lgcplus.com/finance/finance-round-up-councils-plan-cuts-as-budget-discussions-begin-13-12-2021/More and more often, with government policy being to starve local government of funds.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 19, 2023 12:58:42 GMT
But this just a council trimming a few jobs as times are hard. Not quite the same as Carillion going pop and 3000 people losing their jobs.
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