adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jan 29, 2023 13:43:03 GMT
Most (if not all) working-age benefits are means-tested, so don't get paid to people with significant other incomes. But if the benefit exceeds the personal tax allowance, as many do, logically shouldn't they be taxed... and subject to NI if pensioners are being considered for that? What's good for pensioners is surely good for all? Yes, they absolutely should all be considered as income for tax and NI purposes.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jan 29, 2023 13:51:56 GMT
I could never hate you Adrian, but put it this way, I don't think I'll be joining your coalition any time soon. So sell the cap to me, and sell pension income being somehow different to any other income me...? There isn't an NI cap on employers' contributions so the largest part of NI already not subject to a cap. And then if you were to take the cap off employees contributions, you will end up with a 52% tax rate at £50 K, a 72% rate at 100-125K, and a 57% rate at over £125 K (that's in England - higher still in Scotland: 53%, 73% and 59%). That will not only put the UK even higher up in the world tax rate league (currently fourth highest starting rates and fourth highest top rates in the world: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates) it will likely actually reduce the total tax take so will be counter productive. Better to redesign the system to unify tax and NI and be more smoothly progressive. What the top rate should be, and when it should hit, remains arguable but higher than 50% for everything over £50 K is way too high IMHO.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 29, 2023 14:54:24 GMT
I think jonno is going to hate me, too, because I agree about removing the NI upper cap - and I don't see why pension income should be taxed any differently to any other income. As long as you increase them first to take account of the new tax status.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 30, 2023 10:29:21 GMT
I think jonno is going to hate me, too, because I agree about removing the NI upper cap - and I don't see why pension income should be taxed any differently to any other income. As long as you increase them first to take account of the new tax status. why If the Government increases NI wages don't go up to compensate. Currently my Pension is taxed, when I get my state pension I will will pay more tax on my pension as my total income increases. I'm a realist, things need to change and if me paying a little NI from my pension is what is needed I will do it.
I personally think groups like "back to 60" and "WASPI" are being ridiculous.
If the pension age for Women is changed back to 60, then given the sex discrimination act men are entitled to the same. There is no fuss about the following:- John and Joan were both born in 1950, both retired at 65. because she chose not to take it at 60 Joan could take her state pension but chose to continue to work, her state pension increased because she chose not to take it at 65 she gets approximately a 50% uplift. for the last 5 years she pays no NI as she was above state pension age. At the end of the day John pays for 5 additional years, and Joan gets 50% more out.
yes benefits need to be taxed and I mean all forms of benefit ( income ).
Bill is a pensioner and gets a total pension of £13,700 and pays £200 a year in tax. Dai gets a pension of £10,000 , but gets a rent rebate of £1,500 a year, gets council tax benefit worth £1,250 a year, £250 warm home benefit, including the £650 cost of living allowance this year etc a total of £14,000 yet pays no tax.
I know some of you are fed up of me saying it but a binary system of benefits is ridiculous, for example in my council area £2 a week of pension credit means you pay £0 council tax
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 30, 2023 11:46:15 GMT
As long as you increase them first to take account of the new tax status. why If the Government increases NI wages don't go up to compensate. Currently my Pension is taxed, when I get my state pension I will will pay more tax on my pension as my total income increases. I'm a realist, things need to change and if me paying a little NI from my pension is what is needed I will do it.
I personally think groups like "back to 60" and "WASPI" are being ridiculous.
If the pension age for Women is changed back to 60, then given the sex discrimination act men are entitled to the same. There is no fuss about the following:- John and Joan were both born in 1950, both retired at 65. because she chose not to take it at 60 Joan could take her state pension but chose to continue to work, her state pension increased because she chose not to take it at 65 she gets approximately a 50% uplift. for the last 5 years she pays no NI as she was above state pension age. At the end of the day John pays for 5 additional years, and Joan gets 50% more out.
yes benefits need to be taxed and I mean all forms of benefit ( income ).
Bill is a pensioner and gets a total pension of £13,700 and pays £200 a year in tax. Dai gets a pension of £10,000 , but gets a rent rebate of £1,500 a year, gets council tax benefit worth £1,250 a year, £250 warm home benefit, including the £650 cost of living allowance this year etc a total of £14,000 yet pays no tax.
I know some of you are fed up of me saying it but a binary system of benefits is ridiculous, for example in my council area £2 a week of pension credit means you pay £0 council tax So what would they do pay benefits after tax deducted, ie, reduce benefits? Then have to increase benefits because people would say they can't live on them?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 30, 2023 12:06:49 GMT
So it's fair that a working person on £13,000 a year pays tax and NI, but someone on benefits of the same level pays nothing, and a pensioner only pays tax.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Jan 30, 2023 12:44:26 GMT
We have already witnessed tax dishonesty by politicians. Instead of constantly upping taxes under various guises to working class people, more has to done to catch tax avoidance and off shore companies . Not sure where you all live but in my area, the decline in spend on stuff that local councils maintain due to insufficient finances and prob bad management is really noticable. We cannot continue to support every group in society and fund everything and everyone unless some pay more. Personally I think we already pay too much as public purse is very poor value for money. Until this changes, it doesnt matter which party are in power.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 30, 2023 12:48:06 GMT
So it's fair that a working person on £13,000 a year pays tax and NI, but someone on benefits of the same level pays nothing, and a pensioner only pays tax. Life's not fair. Is it fair that people who work equally hard get vastly different incomes from their jobs? Is it fair that some people retire having been unable to save anything from a lifetime of work and others have amassed a fortune? Surely everyone should get paid the same (or at least not orders of magnitude different) if they work the same number of hours equally hard? With the benefit system there is an attempt to look after people who can't support themselves without help. There are inevitably winners and losers, people who can work the system to their advantage and those that can't or won't and then there are the cheats who deliberately lie to get much more than they should. Why not have a levelling up system so if you are less well off than someone on benefits in the same situation you get paid the difference? But like everything else this would be a nightmare to administer. Or raise the threshold for taxation so that poorer people not on benefits don't get caught for tax. I don't know what the solution is or if there is one, but taxing poor people on benefits and taxing pensioners more doesn't seem to fix anything to me. Private pensions are already taxed and you could increase the tax rate on private pensions although people who have worked hard all their lives to build a nest egg for their retirement wouldn't be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 14:19:47 GMT
"Surely everyone should get paid the same (or at least not orders of magnitude different) if they work the same number of hours equally hard?"
what has "equally hard" got to do with it?
how are you going to measure "equally hard"?
what about the poor guy who works out how to get the same thing done without working so hard?
It was my inherent laziness that made my company so much money, why should I not benefit from the money I made them?
Asking for a friend ;-)
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 30, 2023 15:04:07 GMT
Life's not fair. Is it fair that people who work equally hard get vastly different incomes from their jobs? Is it fair that some people retire having been unable to save anything from a lifetime of work and others have amassed a fortune? Surely everyone should get paid the same (or at least not orders of magnitude different) if they work the same number of hours equally hard? With the benefit system there is an attempt to look after people who can't support themselves without help. There are inevitably winners and losers, people who can work the system to their advantage and those that can't or won't and then there are the cheats who deliberately lie to get much more than they should. But the system is more unequal than that I worked and saved into a works pension, I have colleagues who chose not to and instead ran nice cars and expensive holidays. Myself and one of those gave up work at the same time. He gets lots of benefits, because I have saving and am able to take a pension I get nowt. So blow it all get more money from the state.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 30, 2023 15:10:32 GMT
"Surely everyone should get paid the same (or at least not orders of magnitude different) if they work the same number of hours equally hard?"
what has "equally hard" got to do with it?
how are you going to measure "equally hard"?
what about the poor guy who works out how to get the same thing done without working so hard?
It was my inherent laziness that made my company so much money, why should I not benefit from the money I made them?
Asking for a friend ;-)
Yup of course it's impossible to tell who works hard or who works smart, or who is smart enough to get ahead by looking as if they're smart or hard working. But it's very much luck of the draw if you got the inherited brains and good looks (or they all went to a sibling), the good education, the life skills, were in the right place at the right time for that plum job. Or had a more difficult start to life and ended up working in poorly paid jobs. As said life's not fair. (And then you die).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 15:16:24 GMT
ah you spotted the good looks
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 30, 2023 18:08:03 GMT
ah you spotted the good looks Always helps although it really shouldn't. Edit: Tall is apparently very useful in getting good jobs, not me unfortunately!
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 30, 2023 18:23:45 GMT
We have already witnessed tax dishonesty by politicians. Instead of constantly upping taxes under various guises to working class people, more has to done to catch tax avoidance and off shore companies . Not sure where you all live but in my area, the decline in spend on stuff that local councils maintain due to insufficient finances and prob bad management is really noticable. We cannot continue to support every group in society and fund everything and everyone unless some pay more. Personally I think we already pay too much as public purse is very poor value for money. Until this changes, it doesnt matter which party are in power. I spotted today my local council has a line in the budget £40,000 for maintenance of christmas lights ( Now I guess that includes putting them up and taking them down and storage ) but there are 10-12 strings across the main street and 8 that project from lamp posts on my street, £40,000 a year is ridiculous
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jan 30, 2023 19:47:58 GMT
We have already witnessed tax dishonesty by politicians. Instead of constantly upping taxes under various guises to working class people, more has to done to catch tax avoidance and off shore companies . Not sure where you all live but in my area, the decline in spend on stuff that local councils maintain due to insufficient finances and prob bad management is really noticable. We cannot continue to support every group in society and fund everything and everyone unless some pay more. Personally I think we already pay too much as public purse is very poor value for money. Until this changes, it doesnt matter which party are in power. I spotted today my local council has a line in the budget £40,000 for maintenance of christmas lights ( Now I guess that includes putting them up and taking them down and storage ) but there are 10-12 strings across the main street and 8 that project from lamp posts on my street, £40,000 a year is ridiculous And this council that was paying, wait for it, £250,000 per pupil per anum to stay at this residential special school. Obviously that wasn't the main purpose of the article - it almost got lost but didn't someone in the council think that might be a bit much? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63792458
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