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Post by valueinvestor123 on Jan 24, 2015 11:43:57 GMT
This is perhaps a stupid question but I am still struggling to understand the decoupling in interest rates between mortgage owners and business owners. It seems strange that mortgage owners can borrow at 1.5% or whatever it is and business owners (asset backed) have to do with 15-20%. How high will the margins have to be to service this enormously high interest? Perhaps I am missing something. I do see merit for short term bridging loans as it was pointed out to me, but borrowing at 15% to run a business seems detrimental to any business and perhaps if they have to borrow at such high rates, they should re-arrange their finances or think whether they should be running the business at all?
Also, DAK how much does a business typically 'save' by going to p2b to borrow rather than the banks? I tried googling that information but didn't find the info.
For loans that banks won't agree to and where the borrow will turn to p2b, there is perhaps a good reason? Do banks actually ever provide unsecured loans? Or those with personal guarantees only, such as found on FC etc? And are we as lenders not assuming way too much risk? I mean a bank has much more financing power to spread across millions of loans but surely they must have worked out that it is not worth it to them and they would rather lend to secured property owners at ridiculously low rates due to the 99% security?
I can't get my head around these issues and worry that p2b (unsecured) my be 'too good to be true'? Or if not, then the rates will eventually come down. And I also worry that the secured p2b loans will have other issues, such as blown up valuations etc. If the demand is there (which it seems to be in enormous volume at the moment), isn't it better for a p2b to supply as many loans as possible, perhaps sacrificing on some due diligence, since they make more through commissions and not actually invest alongside the lenders? (I think thincats perhaps do, but they are the exception? And also will be able to pull out before anyone else?) Or maybe I worry too much. It just feels like a bubble.
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Post by davee39 on Jan 24, 2015 13:00:24 GMT
I am not a financial expert, but I do not think the reasons are hard to find.
Firstly Banks are not interested in small business customers. The closure of branches and centralization of functions means a business loan request is no longer assessed by a knowledgeable local Bank Manager, but by a standardized profit maximizing formula.
Banks are not interested in smaller customers. After their huge losses on property, private equity and other garbage they have cut back staff and do not have the resources to value and risk assess smaller loans.
Bank Customers only exist as a profit source. If they cannot be sold expensive products which they do not need then the Banks do not want to know. PPI or interest rate swaps for instance.
Banks main function is to generate bonuses, these are threatened by bad lending decisions.
Now the P2P side
Businesses, being risky, tend to pay very high rates for finance which one would hope is covered by the profits generated. The market is affected by taxation so borrowings reduce profits and are tax deductible, this perhaps reduces the effective rate by 20%.
If a business has a large profitable customer order, or seeks to purchase more efficient capital equipment then even high rate borrowing can be attractive. Unfortunately many of the companies which present to FC seem to have problems similar to Billy Bunter (always expecting a postal order to turn up). They are struggling and borrowing might help through a sticky patch. If you going into liquidation what difference does an extra £100k make. A business so badly run that it borrows to pay a tax bill needs to be avoided.
FC kindly provide risk bands and enforce minimum bid rates. This suggests that a portfolio evenly spread across 100 loans and invested at the minimum rates would return 6.5 to 7% after losses and fees, so the return is little better than Ratesetter and subject to more risks.
Now your reference to Borrowing at 15% presumably refers to the smaller P2B lenders who presumably have been rejected by the Banks and FC. As with my views on the Eastern European Lenders lenders - AVOID.
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Jan 24, 2015 15:02:41 GMT
Much of the issue stems from bank capital adequacy regulation (Basel II and in particular Basel III). The regulation is complex and subject to interpretation. However (and here I'm radically oversimplifying), Basel III basically breaks down borrowers into three classes: states (and their local governments), households and companies. Banks are not required to hold any regulatory capital against debt issued by states. They are required to hold more capital against household debt but this depends on security. A 90% LTV mortgage may required 6 times the reg cap that a 60% LTV mortgage requires. You can see this by looking at the historical spreads between 2-year fixed rate mortgages for 60% and 90% LTVs before and after the introduction of new reg cap requirements. For debt or loans to companies they typically have to hold 100% reg cap (though there are exceptions given securitization). The bottom-line is that Basel III tells banks that states are risk-free, property is a bit risky and companies are very risky. Banks essentially attempt to maximize profit by leveraging their risk capital. This now favours them buying government bonds or lending on low LTV property over lending to companies. Take a concrete example: the bank could lend to a company £10mm for 5y at 10%, borrowing at 0.5%, to make £950k in interest/year but would use £10mm of capital. Alternatively they could buy £190mm of UK 5-year gilts at 1%, borrow at 0.5%, make the same £950k interest but use zero risk capital. The capital ratios are thus driving the bank's economics and decision process regarding who and who not to lend to. This may seem silly since most people would much prefer to take the credit risk of say Apple with $70bn in cash in the bank than most households and many European countries! However, this makes quite a bit of sense politically since banks are a major owner of government debt and by risk-weighting it at zero this make it more attractive to banks. Similarly if households were risk-weighted like companies, mortgage approvals would collapse which is not a vote winner (remember the Tory government has had to explicitly step in to make high LTV mortgages available since for banks it was not economically viable to offer 95% mortgages at lower rates). So banks have been driven out of many areas of riskier corporate lending (read SMEs) and a "shadow banking" sector is now growing to take up the space they have vacated. The shadow banking sector is populated by entities who are not regulated as banks and therefore do not have to conform to reg cap rules. This is effectively reg cap arbitrage. Before the bank borrowed at 0.5% and lent the company at 8%; now the bank borrows at 0.5%, lends to the "shadow bank" at 1.5% (say me with a <50% LTV offset mortgage!) and then the shadow bank lends to the company at 10%. We've added another layer of intermediation so as usual that increases costs to the end company. It should also be clear why the BoEs PRA is not really concerned that the banking sector will trigger the next credit crisis - it's been regulated to death - but the almost totally unregulated, and rapidly growing, shadow banking sector is a major concern. Agreed: but the big difference is that if (when?) it all goes t*ts up, we wont get bailed out by the govt.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 24, 2015 15:03:21 GMT
samford71: Thanks for the info/analysis. Does this mean we should all be headed for the P2P/P2B exit?
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 24, 2015 16:01:05 GMT
samford71: Thanks for the info/analysis. Does this mean we should all be headed for the P2P/P2B exit? Of course not. P2P/P2B is currently so small as too be completely irrelevant in any systemic sense. Globally, credit formation to SMEs fell substantially post 2008 and bank regulations mean that they are not able to step up. The issue then is how do you create a replacement sector (call it "shadow banking", of which P2P is just one component) that can provide the same funding without just recreating the same risks in another place. Risk does not go away, it generally gets moved around and shoved in a dark place where nobody can see it. As a regulator, if you over-regulate the new sector, it won't grow fast enough to replace the banks and SME growth will be stifled. Under-regulate and in 5 or 10 years time, you suddenly wake up with the next crisis on the front-page of the newspaper and you're out of a job ... and they have to change the name of the SFA/FSA/FCA again! So regulators aren't worried about P2P right now but they can see that it could easily be part of the next crisis some time in the future. If it wasn't obvious, I wasn't thinking avoiding about a huge national/international crisis. I was more concerned about avoiding a personal one. Of course, if there is one of the former, then it may be impossible to avoid the latter no matter how you arrange your investments.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Jan 25, 2015 2:06:19 GMT
Of course not. P2P/P2B is currently so small as too be completely irrelevant in any systemic sense. Globally, credit formation to SMEs fell substantially post 2008 and bank regulations mean that they are not able to step up. The issue then is how do you create a replacement sector (call it "shadow banking", of which P2P is just one component) that can provide the same funding without just recreating the same risks in another place. Risk does not go away, it generally gets moved around and shoved in a dark place where nobody can see it. As a regulator, if you over-regulate the new sector, it won't grow fast enough to replace the banks and SME growth will be stifled. Under-regulate and in 5 or 10 years time, you suddenly wake up with the next crisis on the front-page of the newspaper and you're out of a job ... and they have to change the name of the SFA/FSA/FCA again! So regulators aren't worried about P2P right now but they can see that it could easily be part of the next crisis some time in the future. If it wasn't obvious, I wasn't thinking avoiding about a huge national/international crisis. I was more concerned about avoiding a personal one. Of course, if there is one of the former, then it may be impossible to avoid the latter no matter how you arrange your investments. I think it is possible, as I replied on the other thread, it may be more relevant here: p2pindependentforum.com/thread/1369/coverage-ratio?page=4&scrollTo=35364So just to get to grips better, are banks not lending to SMEs at all post 2008? Or are they being more selective? It makes a big difference depending which it is. I thought I saw some banks advertising 'affordable loans to expand your business'. I wanted to know what 'affordable' meant (there was no mention of interest rate for the borrower) just to understand why those borrowers would go to p2b instead of the bank. Of course if an entire SME banking sector has now been amputated then it is no wonder that the growth of p2b has been exponential. But if the banks simply are trying to manage risks better, then they are transferring masses amount of risk onto p2b lenders.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jan 25, 2015 2:54:49 GMT
The whole joke about the basel regulations is that they assume Government bonds are risk free. Given the QE-fueled increase in the size of Western Government debt burdens, I see this assumption being tested in due course...
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