adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 29, 2023 16:31:27 GMT
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toffeeboy
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Post by toffeeboy on Aug 29, 2023 16:48:40 GMT
The airline simply isn't liable for that, as it's a situation outside their control. But her travel insurance may cover it. Flights are so cheap these days that there is surely no money built in for contingency. I don't know whether or not it is true what Adrian says here but suggest it isn't - at least a blanket non-liability for consequential loss seems unlikely. I would like to see this toughened up so that airlines, atc and indeed all actors in the industry feel more pressure for things not to go wrong and when they do they put all of their pasengers back in the position they were in before they attempted their flight. Particular focus on queuing and time spent in the airport. If that means ticket prices go up then great. At least there would be a service worth buying. As it stands, I feel we almost have a service for the young and fit - those who don't mind a bit of hardship. For the elderly, disabled and those with young children its much harder. I like the cheaper flights that are available as I hop around Europe on a regular basis. In order to cover myself a pay for a little thing called insurance that covers me for any problems airlines fault or not. It is exactly what insurance is for is it not? Protection from loss specifically financial. Airlines are punished if it is something that is their fault but you can't blame them for something that isn't.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 29, 2023 17:17:39 GMT
Flights are so cheap these days that there is surely no money built in for contingency. I don't know whether or not it is true what Adrian says here but suggest it isn't - at least a blanket non-liability for consequential loss seems unlikely. I would like to see this toughened up so that airlines, atc and indeed all actors in the industry feel more pressure for things not to go wrong and when they do they put all of their pasengers back in the position they were in before they attempted their flight. Particular focus on queuing and time spent in the airport. If that means ticket prices go up then great. At least there would be a service worth buying. As it stands, I feel we almost have a service for the young and fit - those who don't mind a bit of hardship. For the elderly, disabled and those with young children its much harder. I like the cheaper flights that are available as I hop around Europe on a regular basis. In order to cover myself a pay for a little thing called insurance that covers me for any problems airlines fault or not. It is exactly what insurance is for is it not? Protection from loss specifically financial. Airlines are punished if it is something that is their fault but you can't blame them for something that isn't.I agree but speaking about the whole experience, why can't I pay a bit more for something that would be tolerable for most 80 something year olds? Private jet from private terminal is the only way but that is many orders of magnitude more expensive than a rayanir ticket for example. Why is there nothing inbetween? Business class I hear you cry but that can be several fold more expensive and it still doesn't prevent queuing after landing. I'm not suggesting we should be served "immediately" - that would be the preserve of head's of state etc. But queues of huge numbers of people don't just take long they are intimidating for some groups. I don't remember it being quite this bad 20 years ago.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 29, 2023 17:49:45 GMT
Flights are so cheap these days that there is surely no money built in for contingency. I don't know whether or not it is true what Adrian says here but suggest it isn't - at least a blanket non-liability for consequential loss seems unlikely. I would like to see this toughened up so that airlines, atc and indeed all actors in the industry feel more pressure for things not to go wrong and when they do they put all of their pasengers back in the position they were in before they attempted their flight. Particular focus on queuing and time spent in the airport. If that means ticket prices go up then great. At least there would be a service worth buying. As it stands, I feel we almost have a service for the young and fit - those who don't mind a bit of hardship. For the elderly, disabled and those with young children its much harder. Lets not forget that this problem was caused by NATS and not the airlines. They just have to clear up the mess it has caused. There are 2 sets of regulations that cover delays to airline flights (and for the sake of simplicity lets say we are still in the EU).
- if you are flying from an EU airport or returning to an EU airport with an EU carrier your flight is covered by regulation EU261. This provides for compensation if the airline is responsible for the delay. The amount varies depending on the length of the flight and the extent of the delay. So as an example, if you fly BA from New York to London you are covered but if you fly with AA you are not
- Regardless of how the delay was caused the airline owes you a duty of care, which means they (in theory) must provide meals, and (if the flight is delayed overnigh) hotel accommodation. They also have an obligation to get you to your destination as soon as is realitsic in all the circumstances, even if it means rebooking on another airline. If you look at yesterdays chaos, BA had 80 flights cancelled, so thats about 15,000 people who need rebooking, with the majority needing overnight accommodation. Not suprising that it takes some time to sort the mess out
Regardless of what caused the delay, the airline is never liable for consequencial costs. So if you are booked on a Caribbean cruise and your flight to Barbados is delayed (and you miss the boat) it's an issue for your travel insurance, not the airline.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Aug 29, 2023 19:06:39 GMT
Assuming the system is so robust, could the mess was caused be a human error by “switching” to human control after corrupted flight plan because they are not as efficient as the system instead of isolating the problematic aircraft?
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 29, 2023 20:01:11 GMT
(not quoting properly)
I very much doubt it. It wouldn't make sense. And it is not the way it reads. It sounds like - but this will quite possibly change as time goes on - that this is a fairly classic case of a system, somewhere down the chain, not being robust to "bad" input data. If so, that is almost unforgivable. Which is why I don't currently entirely buy it.
But then again, having had some involvement with NATS in the past, it wouldn't entirely surprise me.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 30, 2023 7:41:44 GMT
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 30, 2023 9:19:14 GMT
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 30, 2023 10:13:30 GMT
the "quotes" this morning from Nats are 'interesting'. They seem to be saying that when presented with the erroneous flight plan data the system went into 'fail safe' shutdown (or similar). Which if it is by design (as implied) seems rather odd/OTT. Naively - or perhaps not - you might expect it to reject it, and if the plane was already in the air, perhaps refuse that flight permission to enter Nats controlled airspace and/or treat it as a "rogue" flight. It does sound like the data was being passed from the/a French system to the Nats system, so any bets that somewhere along the line the Nats system was assuming it was only possible for it to receive 'good'/validated/compliant data from that feed and hence it went belly up somewhere.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 30, 2023 10:15:40 GMT
the "quotes" this morning from Nats are 'interesting'. They seem to be saying that when presented with the erroneous flight plan data the system went into 'fail safe' shutdown (or similar). Especially when the backup system then does exactly the same thing presented with the same data... xkcd.com/327/
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toffeeboy
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Post by toffeeboy on Aug 30, 2023 10:56:16 GMT
I like the cheaper flights that are available as I hop around Europe on a regular basis. In order to cover myself a pay for a little thing called insurance that covers me for any problems airlines fault or not. It is exactly what insurance is for is it not? Protection from loss specifically financial. Airlines are punished if it is something that is their fault but you can't blame them for something that isn't.I agree but speaking about the whole experience, why can't I pay a bit more for something that would be tolerable for most 80 something year olds? Private jet from private terminal is the only way but that is many orders of magnitude more expensive than a rayanir ticket for example. Why is there nothing inbetween? Business class I hear you cry but that can be several fold more expensive and it still doesn't prevent queuing after landing. I'm not suggesting we should be served "immediately" - that would be the preserve of head's of state etc. But queues of huge numbers of people don't just take long they are intimidating for some groups. I don't remember it being quite this bad 20 years ago. As you say there use to be airline companies that operated in the middle as it would be now but they don't exist anymore because there isn't enough call for them to be financially viable. Maybe take advantage of age and ask to be pushed in a wheelchair even if you don't need it to avoid the queues and groups.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 30, 2023 11:06:40 GMT
Nobody should be flying anywhere given the state of the planet.
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Post by wildlife2 on Aug 30, 2023 11:20:10 GMT
Flying should just be for birds and the military 
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 30, 2023 11:24:33 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 30, 2023 13:14:30 GMT
Quote: 'My daughter was disappointed but what’s made it easier is everyone is in the same situation.' Are they on earth I wonder?
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