adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 23, 2024 21:59:42 GMT
I do have some experience, however, of liaising with the police to organise non-competitive vehicular events on the open public road - and the golden rule there is "Joe Public shall not be inconvenienced". If you don't want to follow that, you won't get permission to run the event. It can't be that simple. There's loads of races all over the country, from the London Marathon to the Isle of Man TT that inconvenience Joe Public. Or the Nottinghill Carnival, or... whatever really. I've added the word "open", which should have been there from the start. Mea culpa. All of those you name close the roads. If the roads were closed for this bike race, there would be no issue from the support cars having to obey the speed limit.
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 24, 2024 7:36:48 GMT
It can't be that simple. There's loads of races all over the country, from the London Marathon to the Isle of Man TT that inconvenience Joe Public. Or the Nottinghill Carnival, or... whatever really. I've added the word "open", which should have been there from the start. Mea culpa. All of those you name close the roads. If the roads were closed for this bike race, there would be no issue from the support cars having to obey the speed limit. and hence the point I made right at the start about the UK being pretty woeful when it comes to supporting CLOSED road cycling races. In this case, as the article states the necessary notices weren't achieved in time. While we don't know why, the organisers have experience, it's quite likely that a fair chunk of the blame lies on the side of the authorities, the associated beauracracy, or the general antipathy towards supporting such events. Or most likely a combination thereof. Which doesn't mean the organisers also didn't make some errors in the process as well. But in a different universe, one would hope that for a fairly important highish status race the "powers that be" would do everything possible in working with the organisers to make things a success.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 24, 2024 8:01:38 GMT
I've added the word "open", which should have been there from the start. Mea culpa. All of those you name close the roads. If the roads were closed for this bike race, there would be no issue from the support cars having to obey the speed limit. and hence the point I made right at the start about the UK being pretty woeful when it comes to supporting CLOSED road cycling races. Which is a slightly different question, though. Closed-road cycle races should be the only type.
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 26, 2024 10:23:31 GMT
So you've got a 20mph section of road. All of the road users are doing 20mph at most, or exceeding the speed limit. Why should there be a waiver for a group of road users who, if not for the fact that it's a race, would be travelling in a way that would be against various other road laws apart from simply a small number of them (the motorised support vehicles) breaking the limit? Seven miles of road at 20mph takes 21 minutes. Seven miles of road at 30mph takes 14 minutes. Seven minutes in total, across four days of racing, assuming the cyclists are doing a constant 30mph (they surely can't be exceeding 30, else this would be a much wider issue, not just a localised 20mph one). If we assume that the "number of short sections" are seven one mile sections, then the support vehicles will have dropped back at most a minute (a little over 500m) in each section from where they would have been. Obvs, less for shorter sections. But, of course, they won't be doing a constant 30. The winner's time last year was an average 25mph, so you're looking at the support cars losing about 30sec or 250m across each mile. These are SUPPORT vehicles, not actual race participants. Is a gap that small really that critical?30 riders finished within five minutes of the leader, . How many support cars are getting tangled up in amongst that pack of riders? And, yes, I did see the vague para: "Richard Hopkins, the race organiser, said: "A Welsh government scheme designed to enable cycle races to manage race and public safety through 20mph zones has failed, leaving us with a major problem."As with various other debates - elite sport should be way down the list of things to be prioritised when setting the wider public agenda. The Tour De France lasts 3 weeks and can be won or lost in as little as 8 seconds. 7 minutes is massive in a bike race. As a cyclist, motorcyclist and motorist, I find it's always worth remembering cars are the latecomers to roads, bicycles were invented long before. Bicycles don't have to comply with speed limit signs. Nor do they have any indication of their speed, so they couldn't comply in any case. The support vehicles include police outriders on motorcycles, riding a short distance ahead of the leaders, the peloton and each breakaway group, to clear the road of eager supporters, block roundabout entry points, etc. They have to ride at a similar speed - often well over 30mph on the flat - yet stay close enough to the bunch to perform their clearing/warning function. A 7 minute gap just isn't viable.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 26, 2024 10:45:41 GMT
The Tour De France lasts 3 weeks and can be won or lost in as little as 8 seconds. 7 minutes is massive in a bike race. Except that's not seven minutes for the bikes... Just for the support cars. And that's the absolute worst case, across the whole 237 mile race, in lots of little sections that the cars can then easily make up again. And, btw, the gap between first and second at this year's TdF was 6min 17sec, 9m 18sec to third, 19m 3sec to fourth - half an hour between the first ten, with the shortest interval between any two positions 57sec.
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 26, 2024 11:17:54 GMT
The Tour De France lasts 3 weeks and can be won or lost in as little as 8 seconds. 7 minutes is massive in a bike race. Except that's not seven minutes for the bikes... Just for the support cars. And that's the absolute worst case, across the whole 237 mile race, in lots of little sections that the cars can then easily make up again. And, btw, the gap between first and second at this year's TdF was 6min 17sec, 9m 18sec to third, 19m 3sec to fourth - half an hour between the first ten, with the shortest interval between any two positions 57sec. and ? he mentioned that it can be as little as 8 seconds - which is a fact, it has been. But that is abnormally close. However this year was also a larger gap than is normal, for modern day TDFs. But then this is a with 21 days of racing.
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 26, 2024 13:35:48 GMT
The Tour De France lasts 3 weeks and can be won or lost in as little as 8 seconds. 7 minutes is massive in a bike race. Except that's not seven minutes for the bikes... Just for the support cars. And that's the absolute worst case, across the whole 237 mile race, in lots of little sections that the cars can then easily make up again. And, btw, the gap between first and second at this year's TdF was 6min 17sec, 9m 18sec to third, 19m 3sec to fourth - half an hour between the first ten, with the shortest interval between any two positions 57sec. The point here is that many of the support vehicles are not cars but motorbikes and they HAVE to remain within close vicinity of the racing bikes for the safety reasons I gave. If you've ever spectated at the side of the road, as I have, you'd see a long stream of motor vehicles pass through first, then the safety motorcycles clearing the final path a few seconds before the bikes belt on through at speeds that would seriously injure any straggler spectators. Some of the cars could play catch up, but some carry spare wheels and spare bikes. If a leading rider punctures, waiting around for several minutes for his/her team car (or a neutral) would totally destroy his/her race. The motorised vehicles are an integral part of the race. You might not like it, but that's the deal.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 26, 2024 14:44:46 GMT
The police outriders, ahead of the group, don't have to obey the limits.
The race organisers explicitly referenced the support cars behind the riders.
But, of course, neither of those make any difference to my point - nor, indeed, does the TdF, which is run on closed roads. If the police closed the road, then the limit wouldn't apply to the support cars, either. The issue comes because the road is NOT closed to Joe Public. Those bikes, trying their damndest to not lose seconds, are mixing it with other users of that open road.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 26, 2024 16:51:40 GMT
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 26, 2024 19:04:46 GMT
The police outriders, ahead of the group, don't have to obey the limits. I'm not sure that's true. In general, police drivers/riders are expected to comply with traffic regulations. The exception being if it's truly necessary to break the law. I'm not convinced that marshalling a bike race would qualify. Did they though? Behind? They referenced support vehicles not being able to keep up. I interpret those support vehicles to include those at the front, and the difficulties caused if they get restricted to 20mph. Again, I'm not sure that's the case. The only bike racing I've seen where bikes mix it with cars is the individual time trial, where individual riders set off at 2 minute intervals. Cars can overtake these individuals, so nobody is inconvenienced. I have the feeling a lot of bike races take place on roads that are temporarily closed for an hour or two, and that includes many sections of the Tour de France. They block off a road, let the race pass through, then re-open it in short order. This isn't like the normal road closure we see where a road block is put in for several days. I don't know, but I suspect there may be a temporary closure category which covers this type of event.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 26, 2024 19:17:56 GMT
The police outriders, ahead of the group, don't have to obey the limits. I'm not sure that's true. In general, police drivers/riders are expected to comply with traffic regulations. The exception being if it's truly necessary to break the law. I'm not convinced that marshalling a bike race would qualify. Did they though? Behind? They referenced support vehicles not being able to keep up. I interpret those support vehicles to include those at the front, and the difficulties caused if they get restricted to 20mph. Again, I'm not sure that's the case. The only bike racing I've seen where bikes mix it with cars is the individual time trial, where individual riders set off at 2 minute intervals. Cars can overtake these individuals, so nobody is inconvenienced. I have the feeling a lot of bike races take place on roads that are temporarily closed for an hour or two, and that includes many sections of the Tour de France. They block off a road, let the race pass through, then re-open it in short order. This isn't like the normal road closure we see where a road block is put in for several days. I don't know, but I suspect there may be a temporary closure category which covers this type of event. TdF & other major tour will close roads for several hours before the race because the actual race is proceeded by the promotional caravan but the roads will be reopened fairly soon afterwards. It depends on the terrain/ route of course ... mountain stages will close roads earlier and stay closed longer, especially if they are single road. Not having close support vehicles would certainly be an issue, with the potential to decide the race ... youtu.be/gQH3EPY03Tg
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 26, 2024 20:32:02 GMT
The police outriders, ahead of the group, don't have to obey the limits. I'm not sure that's true. In general, police drivers/riders are expected to comply with traffic regulations. The exception being if it's truly necessary to break the law. I'm not convinced that marshalling a bike race would qualify. Did they though? Behind? They referenced support vehicles not being able to keep up. I interpret those support vehicles to include those at the front, and the difficulties caused if they get restricted to 20mph. Again, I'm not sure that's the case. The only bike racing I've seen where bikes mix it with cars is the individual time trial, where individual riders set off at 2 minute intervals. Cars can overtake these individuals, so nobody is inconvenienced. I have the feeling a lot of bike races take place on roads that are temporarily closed for an hour or two, and that includes many sections of the Tour de France. They block off a road, let the race pass through, then re-open it in short order. This isn't like the normal road closure we see where a road block is put in for several days. I don't know, but I suspect there may be a temporary closure category which covers this type of event. Indeed. As a race develops, and the field spreads out, then support vehicles will typically also need to spread out so they mixed in, are behind each meaningful group. If the riders at the back are 10 minutes behind the leaders, having only one car carrying replacement wheels at the back and not up behind the lead rider/group would be a disaster. As is the fact that simply alluding to an average speed of 30mph or 25 mph rider speed vs a 20mph vehicle support limit misses a point. What about a 20mph road section which is downhill where rider speeds will be significantly in excess of 30mph ? Yes its Wales, so descents are alpine in length, but still. Yes they aren't top adult pros, so they aren't going to hit the lunatic maximum or sustained descent speeds of the pro-tour, but even I've managed >44mph maximum on a descent. On the second point. Indeed, but not the TdF - nor other Grand Tour events I suspect - which relies on much longer closures to allow for all the associated hulabaloo which is associated with it.
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 26, 2024 22:04:56 GMT
I'm not sure that's true. In general, police drivers/riders are expected to comply with traffic regulations. The exception being if it's truly necessary to break the law. I'm not convinced that marshalling a bike race would qualify. Did they though? Behind? They referenced support vehicles not being able to keep up. I interpret those support vehicles to include those at the front, and the difficulties caused if they get restricted to 20mph. Again, I'm not sure that's the case. The only bike racing I've seen where bikes mix it with cars is the individual time trial, where individual riders set off at 2 minute intervals. Cars can overtake these individuals, so nobody is inconvenienced. I have the feeling a lot of bike races take place on roads that are temporarily closed for an hour or two, and that includes many sections of the Tour de France. They block off a road, let the race pass through, then re-open it in short order. This isn't like the normal road closure we see where a road block is put in for several days. I don't know, but I suspect there may be a temporary closure category which covers this type of event. Indeed. As a race develops, and the field spreads out, then support vehicles will typically also need to spread out so they mixed in, are behind each meaningful group. If the riders at the back are 10 minutes behind the leaders, having only one car carrying replacement wheels at the back and not up behind the lead rider/group would be a disaster. As is the fact that simply alluding to an average speed of 30mph or 25 mph rider speed vs a 20mph vehicle support limit misses a point. What about a 20mph road section which is downhill where rider speeds will be significantly in excess of 30mph ? Yes its Wales, so descents are alpine in length, but still. Yes they aren't top adult pros, so they aren't going to hit the lunatic maximum or sustained descent speeds of the pro-tour, but even I've managed >44mph maximum on a descent. On the second point. Indeed, but not the TdF - nor other Grand Tour events I suspect - which relies on much longer closures to allow for all the associated hulabaloo which is associated with it. LOL, well into my dotage now, I rolled downhill from the Broadway Tower towards Broadway earlier this year on my hefty step-thru eBike, hitting 45mph. Done the same on lighter road bikes many times in the French mountains, too, over the years. I tend to anchor up beyond 45mph, as my bottle goes. 45mph on a pushbike feels right on the edge. Beyond that, save it for the motorbike. Pro cyclists, however, regularly exceed 70mph on the Alpine descents. On the twisty downhills, even their accompanying motorbikes can't keep up! You will agree, BB, that really does take terrific courage and skill. Some TdF road closures are not as long as you might think, though. My late in-laws once pulled in for a lunchtime nap in their car/caravan combo in a typical sleepy French market square. Half an hour later, they were suddenly surrounded by onlookers and awoken by a lot of commotion to find the TdF going through! The road was closed for a short period after they'd pulled in and they were 'trapped' for just an hour or two until the massive travelling spectacle had passed by, then it was business as usual. It has long been on our bucket list to one day park our motorhome up Alpe D'Huez to witness the Tour climb that nasty, punishing incline, but there, it's true, you do have to arrive a few days early and be prepared to remain imprisoned for at least a week until the race has passed and the road re-opened. Not that we'd understand much being said, but we'd stay as close as possible to 'Dutch Corner', the site adorned in orange every year the TdF uses it, inhabited for a week by the adoring NL fans who love their cycling and French mountains in equal measure, and know how to have a good time! They epitomise the spirit of bike racing and the TdF for my wife and I. Over the years, we've driven all the great French climbs (Alpe D'Huez, Galibier, Tourmalet, Mont Ventoux, etc, etc), many times each, and I've cycled the odd sections too as well as some of the lesser Alpine ascents. They are difficult enough in a car, so we know just what it takes to be selected as a TdF cyclist and be admitted as one of the cycling gods! Mont Ventoux, where famous British cyclist Tommy Simpson tragically lost his life in 1967, isn't quite the toughest, but is easily the most spectacular of them all. Towards the top, all vegetation disappears and it becomes more like riding across a moonscape. 'Spectacular' doesn't do it justice, if ever you get the chance... Apologies for rambling on, but this bike racing diversion has brought back so many wonderful memories. 
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 27, 2024 10:42:58 GMT
Indeed. As a race develops, and the field spreads out, then support vehicles will typically also need to spread out so they mixed in, are behind each meaningful group. If the riders at the back are 10 minutes behind the leaders, having only one car carrying replacement wheels at the back and not up behind the lead rider/group would be a disaster. As is the fact that simply alluding to an average speed of 30mph or 25 mph rider speed vs a 20mph vehicle support limit misses a point. What about a 20mph road section which is downhill where rider speeds will be significantly in excess of 30mph ? Yes its Wales, so descents are alpine in length, but still. Yes they aren't top adult pros, so they aren't going to hit the lunatic maximum or sustained descent speeds of the pro-tour, but even I've managed >44mph maximum on a descent. On the second point. Indeed, but not the TdF - nor other Grand Tour events I suspect - which relies on much longer closures to allow for all the associated hulabaloo which is associated with it. LOL, well into my dotage now, I rolled downhill from the Broadway Tower towards Broadway earlier this year on my hefty step-thru eBike, hitting 45mph. Done the same on lighter road bikes many times in the French mountains, too, over the years. I tend to anchor up beyond 45mph, as my bottle goes. 45mph on a pushbike feels right on the edge. Beyond that, save it for the motorbike. Pro cyclists, however, regularly exceed 70mph on the Alpine descents. On the twisty downhills, even their accompanying motorbikes can't keep up! You will agree, BB, that really does take terrific courage and skill. Some TdF road closures are not as long as you might think, though. My late in-laws once pulled in for a lunchtime nap in their car/caravan combo in a typical sleepy French market square. Half an hour later, they were suddenly surrounded by onlookers and awoken by a lot of commotion to find the TdF going through! The road was closed for a short period after they'd pulled in and they were 'trapped' for just an hour or two until the massive travelling spectacle had passed by, then it was business as usual. It has long been on our bucket list to one day park our motorhome up Alpe D'Huez to witness the Tour climb that nasty, punishing incline, but there, it's true, you do have to arrive a few days early and be prepared to remain imprisoned for at least a week until the race has passed and the road re-opened. Not that we'd understand much being said, but we'd stay as close as possible to 'Dutch Corner', the site adorned in orange every year the TdF uses it, inhabited for a week by the adoring NL fans who love their cycling and French mountains in equal measure, and know how to have a good time! They epitomise the spirit of bike racing and the TdF for my wife and I. Over the years, we've driven all the great French climbs (Alpe D'Huez, Galibier, Tourmalet, Mont Ventoux, etc, etc), many times each, and I've cycled the odd sections too as well as some of the lesser Alpine ascents. They are difficult enough in a car, so we know just what it takes to be selected as a TdF cyclist and be admitted as one of the cycling gods! Mont Ventoux, where famous British cyclist Tommy Simpson tragically lost his life in 1967, isn't quite the toughest, but is easily the most spectacular of them all. Towards the top, all vegetation disappears and it becomes more like riding across a moonscape. 'Spectacular' doesn't do it justice, if ever you get the chance... Apologies for rambling on, but this bike racing diversion has brought back so many wonderful memories. Yes, I tend to start anchoring up at lower speeds these days. Though part of that is the state of UK roads which can be utterly terrifying at lower speed when on two narrow tyres. European roads are generally a lot lot more sane to descend at speed. I've not ridden up Mont Ventoux, and not sure I now ever will (significant medical event early this year may now make it less likely). The closest I've come is a) walking up it and staying in a "hotel" up there and b) a week long cycle tour in its environs, essentially going all round it in the process.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 1, 2024 15:25:58 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crkm15z1r82oNot sure what to make of this other than the unsaid part of the article which is a Labour MP having so many flats given half of them don't like Landlords at all. The headline defect, mould above the shower, occurs in one of our showers. It has a powerful inline fan directly above the shower and window open in the summer but still every few months black mould appears which needs treating and then re-painting.
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